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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2022, 20:03 
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Nice job Michael!
If you really want to stir up the troops, mention minus Vref numbers. The comments are quite entertaining....
I had a nice discussion with the head of the 550 department at a major training facility and asked about <Vref operations. He just smiled and said what I was thinking, "well, at the end of the day, its a straight Cessna wing so 1.3Vso works perfectly well".
My milk run in the Citation II is into KRAS. It is just short of 3,500' and we routinely land with 3,000# of fuel, 4-6 passengers, and bags. It is quite easy to make the 1,800' turnoff point with moderate braking and being quick on the TR's. I do confess to being nervous on the takeoffs when there are a lot of birds. A bird strike at V1 would not end well.
These are amazing machines, and other than fuel burn, there isn't much not to like about them!

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2022, 07:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8WpO-A4eVw

Different perspective. I didn't look too hard for the TAWS mute on the Sandel system...annoying. Nose doesn't appear that high in real life. It's an intimidating airport and your sphincter should be very tight. I got a severe back spasm taxiing in from my muscle tightness; not the first time.

On a short field, you cannot go for a greaser; get it down and get it stopped. My recurrent DPE says you should always use this technique. He sees too many little jets sailing off the end of the runway.


That one felt like a carrier landing. My back hurts just watching it ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2022, 08:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
Nice job Michael!
If you really want to stir up the troops, mention minus Vref numbers. The comments are quite entertaining....
I had a nice discussion with the head of the 550 department at a major training facility and asked about <Vref operations. He just smiled and said what I was thinking, "well, at the end of the day, its a straight Cessna wing so 1.3Vso works perfectly well".
My milk run in the Citation II is into KRAS. It is just short of 3,500' and we routinely land with 3,000# of fuel, 4-6 passengers, and bags. It is quite easy to make the 1,800' turnoff point with moderate braking and being quick on the TR's. I do confess to being nervous on the takeoffs when there are a lot of birds. A bird strike at V1 would not end well.
These are amazing machines, and other than fuel burn, there isn't much not to like about them!


I had to get some data to put this airport in perspective for me. It was a PAIN IN THE POSTERIOR to get a LearJet 35A into 3400 feet at nearly sea level, with almost always a sea breeze down the runway. Of course, the buckets were disabled, as they are on a lot of Lears.

That straight wing (and a whole lot less weight) really make a difference.

Mountain Air Airport 2NC0
Dimensions: 2900 x 50 ft
Elevation: 4432 ft

Montgomery Field (San Diego) KMYF
Dimensions: 4598 x 150 ft.
Elevation: 427 ft
Displaced threshold: 1199 ft

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2022, 08:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
That one felt like a carrier landing. My back hurts just watching it ;-)

You are reading too much into the movement of a handheld camera.

That landing wasn't particularly rough and you need to get the plane down on that runway.

An example of a landing that looks good but is actually quite bad:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/O7EzzUfgeHE[/youtube]

Way too fast, never deploys speedbrakes, uses a ton of runway, wears out brakes and tires.

That pilot is a runway overrun waiting to happen.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2022, 09:13 
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Joined: 03/14/15
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Aircraft: Piper Cheyenne II
My $.02

After years of making fun of straight wing legacy Citations I now have an S2 in my orbit that I am flying. I am now a convert. Extremely versatile and capable little machine. I was truly shocked how easy it is to comfortably use smaller runways , be well withing the numbers, and have the airplane perform better than the book numbers would suggest. Mike C's dissertations on TR's and actual landing characteristics are dead on. The later Williams engined airplanes have no TR''s and you are thus totally reliant on brakes. TRs very effective in this airplane and dramatically reduce brake wear.

If you can stomach the fuel cost (not pleasant at today's oil prices) its a hard package to beat for entry level / owner flown jets.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2022, 09:23 
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Username Protected wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8WpO-A4eVw

Different perspective. I didn't look too hard for the TAWS mute on the Sandel system...annoying.

OMG I just watched that and wanted to rip the TAWS box out of the panel! Even with the squat switches closed it's still bitching.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2022, 14:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8WpO-A4eVw

Different perspective. I didn't look too hard for the TAWS mute on the Sandel system...annoying.

OMG I just watched that and wanted to rip the TAWS box out of the panel! Even with the squat switches closed it's still bitching.


Read the manual on the sandel to shut it up on the way out I’d rather run into the mountains than hear that thing bitching at me

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2022, 16:23 
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Ouch. That looks spendy.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2022, 17:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
Ouch. That looks spendy.


Take off accident. Something happened with the right engine/prop and it went into the hill. Giant left brake skid so that didn't help too much.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2022, 23:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
Do you know why Cessna "went away" from specifying those on their "smaller" modern jets? It seems like a really useful feature.

On a light jet they’re not as useful as you’d think. With a ref speed around 100 and a touchdown speed around ten knots below that you’re already pretty slow. From weight on wheels if you’re quick with the spoiler switch the TRs can be deployed in about five seconds or so. On a short field you’re already on the brakes and you need to have the thrust back to idle at 80 kts. The result is that there is maybe enough time to get the engines to max reverse before you have to shove the handles back down. That doesn’t make for a big difference in stopping distance but it comes at a cost of weight, complexity, maintenance, and acquisition cost.

Perhaps surprisingly, they can be more helpful on long runways where you can leave them at idle reverse and save your brakes, but it takes a lot of brake linings to pay for a set of TRs.

Larger, heavier aircraft benefit more from reversers because their landing speeds are higher and so the reverse thrust can be used longer.


I agree, not much useful time with the TR's spooled up, but still very useful in mitigating residual thrust at idle.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2022, 00:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
I agree, not much useful time with the TR's spooled up, but still very useful in mitigating residual thrust at idle.

Here is an example of a 13,000 lbs airplane landing with no brakes but using TRs, power reverse until 60 KIAS, then idle reverse below that.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/3LlvSjGqPVY[/youtube]

I had brakes available, but wanted to see how it would work without using any at all.

Total ground run was 3200 ft.

No brakes at all, not even when turning off the runway.

Killing idle thrust is a huge benefit for TR equipped airplanes.

If I had been aggressive on the brakes, ground run would have been ~1500 ft based on past experience. Deploying the TRs still helps even if you get no power reverse since it creates less energy the brakes have to absorb by killing idle thrust.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2022, 10:21 
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Thrust reversers make a HUGE difference on Citations. HUGE! They also cost practically nothing to maintain.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2022, 13:08 
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A Slowtation buddy likes to troll Lear and Gulfstream pilots. He challenges them to a race. They get to pick the city pair and he gets to pick … the runway.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2022, 13:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
A Slowtation buddy likes to troll Lear and Gulfstream pilots. He challenges them to a race. They get to pick the city pair and he gets to pick … the runway.

Being able to use short runways is a speed advantage since you can get closer to your end destination or be based closer to your start point.

There is also a cost advantage. I can often land at a smaller airport and pay a lot less for fees and fuel. Recent case in point KSGS versus KFCM.

My "slowtation" has cruised as fast as 425 knots, mach 0.74. The airlines are doing about 0.78, ~450 knots, so not a lot faster. Even a Lear or Gulfstream at mach 0.86 is only 488 knots. Seems like a lot of extra cost and effort to get 60 more knots. I'd rather have the docile straight wing that gets me in and out of short runways than the 60 knots.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2022, 14:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
That one felt like a carrier landing. My back hurts just watching it ;-)

You are reading too much into the movement of a handheld camera.

That landing wasn't particularly rough and you need to get the plane down on that runway.

An example of a landing that looks good but is actually quite bad:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/O7EzzUfgeHE[/youtube]

Way too fast, never deploys speedbrakes, uses a ton of runway, wears out brakes and tires.

That pilot is a runway overrun waiting to happen.

Mike C.

I grant you it was poor form not to deploy the boards, but how are you determining the touchdown speed was too high? He used the whole runway, but I think that's a 3400' runway. Maybe he used little to no brakes.
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