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28 Mar 2024, 12:53 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 10:57 
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Joined: 09/12/19
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Aircraft: PA46 Mirage
OK, so a bit of whining here......

Had an SR22T, and thought it handled turbulence pretty well for a small plane. Earlier this year, purchased a Mirage and have about 100 hours or so on it, and boy does it bounce. I've been in what I thought would not have been that bad of turbulence in the Cirrus, and the Mirage just feels like a kite. I knew going in that the PA46 was not as "solid" feeling, but I was surprised.

We LOVE the pressurization and the room in the plane, but my wife even commented about how she feels less "secure" in the Mirage because it's moving around more. Yes, the Yaw Damper is working fine........

So, my question is really, if we moved to the Meridian, are we getting a more stable platform, or are we wasting our time thinking the heavier airframe is going to smooth out some of the bumps? I'm moving to turbine at some point in the next 12 months, but not sure what. Pretty much ANY of them cover our missions, with the understanding that every once in a while we may need to charter, ship bags, stop for fuel, etc.

I know the TBM would be a better ride, and I know that a much heavier plane like a King Air or Pilatus would be better, but is there an "in between"? I finally have my wife happy to fly whenever and wherever we can (even flew the Mirage to Turks & Caicos earlier this year), and I'm afraid that if she starts not liking the "ride" her desire to go will start to wane.

Help me spend my money, or tell me to suck it up..........but looking for some "ride reports" of the steps up from the Mirage.

BTW - yes, I know I can post in MMOPA, but this forum is so much more active and useful (and fun) for the variety of opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 11:07 
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Joined: 01/24/09
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Location: KRBG, Roseburg, OR
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One simple reason is that you are flying higher, in areas where you have more turbulence. You will have to use flight following, and get all of the pireps from different altitudes , and make adjustments, like the airline pilots do when IFR rules allow. There will be a difference between flying a Cessna 150 and a Piper Mirage in the same turbulence at the same altitudes, but I don't think you are going to solve this problem with a $3,000,000 aircraft.

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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 11:32 
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Aircraft: PA46 Mirage
Larry - I don't think that's it. Haven't had any turbulence issues at FL210. It's all below 12k. I fly IFR everywhere, listen to and get ride reports, etc. The Mirage is a kite. I'm wondering how the next steps up compare.

It's the plane, not the altitude.


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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 11:39 
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Joined: 01/18/11
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Location: Lakeland , Ga
Aircraft: H35, T-41B, Aircoupe
Best ride for the money is probablu the MU 2.
The higher the wing loading, generally the better the ride.


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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 11:42 
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Joined: 12/10/10
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Location: KNQA
Aircraft: TBM910, PA18
Ride quality really depends on on 2 things. The wing loading and the speed at which you are flying through turbulance.

Flying through turbulence at faster speeds leads to greater acceleration of the airplane. Having a faster airplane means you hit the turbulence harder. When flying a turbine, you will have to learn to slow down during the bottom of descents to keep from beating yourself and your passengers to pieces. 250 IAS while legal will not feel good hitting thermals under 5000ft.

The other piece is wing loading. Heavier wing loading means you feel less turbulence.
For reference:
SR22: 23.5 psf
PA46: 24.8 psf
TBM: 38 psf
B737: 140 psf

As you can see, SR22 and PA46 have nearly identical wing loading so there will be negligible difference in the ride. You need more loading. TBM is better AT THE SAME TAS. Other things high wing loading means? More efficient wing AND higher stalling speed. No free lunches as usual.


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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 11:44 
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Joined: 11/18/16
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Aircraft: King Air C90
Rocky is correct. Wing loading has A LOT to do with the ride in the bumps. The higher the wing loading, the better the ride.


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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 11:53 
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Two planes, same pilot

A lot of turbulence mitigation comes from the pilot’s decision making-

Just my $0.02


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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 12:00 
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Aircraft: PA46 Mirage
Two planes flying through similar conditions at similar speeds with different result. I'm not flying into convective weather.

For example, gusty winds and thermals are not different this year versus last year. The Mirage doesn't seem to handle them as well. Flying it a the same IAS & TAS as the Cirrus, since they essentially perform the same under 12k.

I'm looking for opinions on the planes, not the pilot.


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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 12:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
Larry - I don't think that's it. Haven't had any turbulence issues at FL210. It's all below 12k. I fly IFR everywhere, listen to and get ride reports, etc. The Mirage is a kite. I'm wondering how the next steps up compare.

It's the plane, not the altitude.


Agree with the altitude. Turbulence in the flight levels is a non issue, I've never seen it as bad as low level bumps.

Higher wing loading is better for turbulence.

Malibu/Mirage 24.8 lbs/sqft
Meridian 27.8
TBM 38.9


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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 12:04 
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Joined: 01/08/17
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Aircraft: Aerostars, F33A
After you fly an Aerostar (35.4 lb / square foot) for a while you start to realize you don't feel much turbulence any more!

With pressurization you are above it most of the time.

When you are in the turbulence the wing loading and natural stability of the design makes it just seem to wiggle a bit where most light twins are getting bounced all over the sky!


Last edited on 16 Jun 2022, 12:28, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 12:11 
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If you are moving to turbine, and want a nice ride, look at a 425 or even a 441 if you want more room and speed. The fuel burn for both will be the same, at about 65 gph average for a 2-3 hour trip. The difference is speed and room. The 425 will do about 260 knots and the 441 will do about 300 knots with 2 more seats and a much larger cabin.

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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 12:32 
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Joined: 01/10/13
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Location: greenville,ms
Aircraft: baron 58
what's the wing loading on a 58 vs a36


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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 12:56 
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Joined: 03/23/08
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Company: AssuredPartners Aerospace Phx.
Location: KDVT, 46U
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Username Protected wrote:
Best ride for the money is probablu the MU 2.
The higher the wing loading, generally the better the ride.

:thumbup:

Well... knowing there can't be a "which airplane do I need" thread that doesn't have MU2 in it... I have to second Rocky's comment above.

The PA46 big long wing will be very communicative in bumps.
I think you will find a similar thing with the Meridian you are finding with the Mirage.

Our Mu2 in the SW USA (always bumpy) was one of the better riding platforms out there.
Although the KA wasn't bad either, just based on its mass and having big engines further out seems to help.

There is also a soothing factor with the bigger mass and engines "out there" that adds an embracing comfort level for passengers. Even if it isn't actually riding much better... there is a perception of "more" that helps pax, I feel.

Unanimously, the wives and GFs that rode in our Mu2 raved about the comfort and sense of security (which I sometimes marveled at based on the Mu2 reputation and having me driving!). One such spouse even said the Mu2 was "way more comfortable" than the big jet they normally fly in which seriously pissed off her husband.
Not even making this up, it happened every single time. #chicksdigit

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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 13:15 
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Joined: 06/17/14
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Location: KJYO
Aircraft: C-182, GA-7
If your budget supports it Tarver usually has a Citation for sale cheaper than a Pilatypus.

I didn’t see it recommended, but the Pilatus is a pretty solid ride in the back and is about as roomy as an F90 KingAir and much easier to load the kids mountain bikes into.


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 Post subject: Re: Am I a Weenie, or do I need a new plane?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2022, 13:35 
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Joined: 01/23/13
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Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
How close to your max gross weight are you in the PA46 vs. the SR22?

I'm guessing that the Cirrus was flown much closer to its max, so it's likely that the wing loading in the PA46 is even lower.


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