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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2022, 04:23 
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Location: KSGR Sugar Land
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Username Protected wrote:
It is a love/hate relationship with gear. While the "donuts" are very low maintenance and you never find them flat, they require a good landing to prevent rebound. They are not as forgiving as oleo struts.

The new high weight gear being engineered will be oleo although it my be a "closed system" with a replaceable cartridge (like an auto shock absorber). The main purpose is to soften the impact of the required drop test. I would prefer a replaceable cartridge to an oleo strut.

Except nothing is being engineered. In a posting by the CEO, Jonny Pollack, on April 20 of this year on Mooneyspace , he said "I've been working diligently to keep Mooney alive and kicking and to put us in a position to become self-sustaining so we can concentrate on the more important stuff: Developing the retrofit landing gear to increase useful load and building brand new Ultras." .... So Mooney currently is not even in a position to become "self-sustaining" --- That means they are negative cash-flowing. And it is not because they are working on projects.

Last year the new owners were looking for money and became so desperate as to peddle the company for sale on Bizquest for $15 million. Bizquest is like the CraigsList of business brokers. http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=37b810e4-8c5f-4a32-9069-f9e524f2e459 The Bizquest posting (since taken down) even included their Business Plan. They got no takers.

Mooney has struggled to make parts. They recently opened their Service Center to do Annuals and repairs but it is hard to see how they compete with Dugosh and make much from that. More than year and a half ago the new management at Mooney also said the company would work on an upgrade path for the G1000 to NXi at the same time as the landing gear. They don't even mention the NXi upgrade anymore.

Many things are possible (including bankruptcy...again)...but unlikely any time soon.


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2022, 08:49 
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If you look at the powerplants you can see why the Ovation is faster than the Panterra or DA52. With equal capability powerplants it would be a much better comparison.
The DA50 is woefully underpowered but they used the largest engine Available. I think the Ovation is a good aircraft.


Username Protected wrote:
After almost 50 years in aviation, 48 of them professionally, I bought a Mooney Ovation. Why?

I love Beechcrafts. I really do. I have worked for a Beech dealer, I have flown everything from a King Air 200 to a Skipper. My favorite? The F-90. I've even had dinner at Olive Ann's table. That said, I had zero, no experience in Mooney's. I flew a long body (Eagle) and was impressed. Is the fit and finish as good as Beech? No, few airplanes do. Is the Mooney strongly constructed? The paucity of airframe AD's over other brands speak to that fact. Is it cramped? Width wise about the same as a Bonanza, height wise not as much.

I looked at an A-36 but in reality cabin length after about the same after you load luggage in the A-36. Those wonderful doors on the A-36 are a winner, but my mission was really just my wife and I so it really was a moot point. We were both going to board through a single starboard door.

Is the Mooney hard to land? Not if you fly it precisely, it does not tolerate sloppy airmanship. Because of the laminar flow wing, the center of lift is further aft and that is less forgiving, but also pays dividends in efficiency.

As for it being "an old design" the reality is the Bonanza type certificate and the Mooney type certificate were issued in circa 1955/1956 within months of each other.

My Mooney is FIKI equipped, dual alternators, dual batteries. I fly it all kinds of weather and it delivers and is reliable. I fly 170 knots on 12.3 gph LOP. That kind of efficiency is hard to beat. In icing conditions the Mooney wing equipped with TKS is actually a better performer with its center of lift further aft. The "dog bone" effect is less pronounced. The adjustable stab creates a safer approach regime when iced.

I typically am able to annual the airplane for less than 3K with holding nothing from the maintenance regimen. Some will say "what about support?" The airplane is plainly made and most parts can be manufactured in the field. The recent issues of Bonanza tail feathers or Cessna C-210 center sections points that nothing is guaranteed in aging fleets even if the factory is still in business.

I have found bias against most airplanes comes from a failure to understand what the designer was trying to accomplish. When I went to Airbus from Boeing it took me over a year to appreciate what Airbus what trying to accomplish, once I did I found it to be a remarkable airplane. The same happened with my appreciation of Mooney. It achieves its design aims, efficiency and strength, solidly and without gimmicks.

When you look at the newest designs, the Panthera or the DA-50NG their performance does not surpass a Mooney, even though they cost 4 times as much as a good used Ovation or Acclaim. That speaks to good design.


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2022, 09:12 
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Aircraft: M20R
Username Protected wrote:
It is a love/hate relationship with gear. While the "donuts" are very low maintenance and you never find them flat, they require a good landing to prevent rebound. They are not as forgiving as oleo struts.

The new high weight gear being engineered will be oleo although it my be a "closed system" with a replaceable cartridge (like an auto shock absorber). The main purpose is to soften the impact of the required drop test. I would prefer a replaceable cartridge to an oleo strut.

Except nothing is being engineered. In a posting by the CEO, Jonny Pollack, on April 20 of this year on Mooneyspace , he said "I've been working diligently to keep Mooney alive and kicking and to put us in a position to become self-sustaining so we can concentrate on the more important stuff: Developing the retrofit landing gear to increase useful load and building brand new Ultras." .... So Mooney currently is not even in a position to become "self-sustaining" --- That means they are negative cash-flowing. And it is not because they are working on projects.

Last year the new owners were looking for money and became so desperate as to peddle the company for sale on Bizquest for $15 million. Bizquest is like the CraigsList of business brokers. http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=37b810e4-8c5f-4a32-9069-f9e524f2e459 The Bizquest posting (since taken down) even included their Business Plan. They got no takers.

Mooney has struggled to make parts. They recently opened their Service Center to do Annuals and repairs but it is hard to see how they compete with Dugosh and make much from that. More than year and a half ago the new management at Mooney also said the company would work on an upgrade path for the G1000 to NXi at the same time as the landing gear. They don't even mention the NXi upgrade anymore.

Many things are possible (including bankruptcy...again)...but unlikely any time soon.


All that you said is true, however things have changed a little since that posting. One they are no longer "shopping the company" and have hired some people including an avionics engineer and a certified welder. I listened intently to Pollack's presentation at MooneyMax, ran into him in the lobby of the hotel and talked one on one with him. While nothing is guaranteed in this environment, their business plan is to service the fleet and use the manufacturing capability to build for third parties. The third party business is profitable for them now. The landing gear upgrade and NXi upgrade are both on track one. Both are being actively engineered right now with new people. There may be instead of a G1000 NXi upgrade an STC to remove the G1000 classic and install a panel of the owner's choice as long as it maintains the airplanes certification status of IFR Day/Night. That would "future proof" the airplane long after even NXi is obsolete.

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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2022, 17:50 
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Joined: 06/12/11
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Company: Fly By Knight, Inc.
Location: KHDC, Hammond LA.
Aircraft: H35, B58, PA28, PA34
My 1st airplane in 2000 as a 200hr wonder was a 1988 201LM, kept it at KIXD (New Century KS). I used it to commute to Dallas (Addison) & Austin Bergstrom - read longish runways. Started to work on my commercial with an instructor who was the airport manger at Gardner (K34), Well 1st time I tried to take it in there I ended up going around somethin like 4 times until I managed to put it down - coming over the numbers at 90kts or whatever I was doing just wasn't going to work. 2001 we moved to Louisiana and based at L31 (2999ft), got the speed under control and could make the 1500ft turn off without brakes.

2003 I got twin fever, almost went for a Colemill B55 but ended up with a 1996 Bravo ??(N243CW) with FIKI, long range fuel (118gal) and a 90lb fuel fuel payload. Down low 30kts faster than the 201 for twice the fuel burn, up high we filed & received direct KSAF-KHDC at FL230 203kts true straight over TTT sucking O2, TKS pump running while listening to the airliners below us griping about the ice - started the descent over KAEX for KHDC, quite a fun trip for a piston GA guy. Sold it in 2006 as I just wasn't using it enough to justify the ownership. Unfortunately that engine suffered a crankshaft failure in 2015 and killed the owner :sad:

2008 I got my A&P because I'd had enough of wireless telecoms industry and to support SWMBOs flight school, ended up working on several M20s - yes the pre 1984 with all the small belly panel holes are a pain, yes the 201 is tight to change the oil filter and the oil suction screen is really......interesting, until you figure it out - pull the nut off before you try to slide the screen out. But I gotta say, take a look inside those wings - they're stout, the riveting & construction is immaculate !

2018 we bought a 2000 Screaming Eagle (310hp) Ovation, the intent was to put it on our 135 cert, by the time I'd got the 18 year old running perfectly fine engine overhauled and the new standby alternator installed we'd given up making millions at the 135 game, sold it last year and now it's flying its a** off in CA. However oil changes are much easier on the 550s than the lyc 360s. Working on the long bodies is a breeze compared to the earlier models so far as the engine is concerned - the rest of the airframe post 84 is similar.


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2022, 19:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
.... But I gotta say, take a look inside those wings - they're stout, the riveting & construction is immaculate !

Working on the long bodies is a breeze compared to the earlier models so far as the engine is concerned - the rest of the airframe post 84 is similar.

Except that the wings folded up on that M20M Bravo, N9156Z, in a crash on August 7 of last year. Yes it was subject to unusual forces and stabilizer separation but the wings did fold up prior to impact. It is not clear if the wings started to fail before or after the stabilizer. At first the Mooney community was in complete disbelief of the possibility that the wings could fold but it was documented on video and in the Prelim.

The plane was originally in Nevada, always hangared and immaculately maintained. The next and last owner, a physician, reportedly spared no expense on maintenance and hangaring so it is unlikely environmental corrosion was the culprit in the wing failure. On this site more than once it has been reported by people that part out Mooney's that they have found "inter granular corrosion on the doublers" and "Mooneys that I purchased from Embry-Riddle were 1992 models. They suffered from premature inter granular corrosion that I believe was due to manufacturing defects-probably defective heat treatments or alloy that was out of spec. Both are known to cause premature inter granular corrosion."

It will be interesting to see if an AD comes out of the investigation. If so, as you highlight that all Mooney's are similar, it could be far ranging. I hope the NTSB can get the Final out sooner than the 2.5-3 years that seems to be the norm nowdays.


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2022, 19:31 
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Company: RPM Aircraft Service
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Aircraft: Mooney 201, A320
tail parts were found across the street. If you exceed Vne and then pull to the stop you can break any airplane. When the tail comes off the plane can pitch pretty violently.


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2022, 20:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
tail parts were found across the street. If you exceed Vne and then pull to the stop you can break any airplane. When the tail comes off the plane can pitch pretty violently.


Pitch down typically. In the event that the tail plane failure occurs first then the wing subsequently fails under a negative G load. On the crash referenced above the wing failed under positive G load as indicated in the video.

Hopefully it was an isolated incident due to localized corrosion. They certainly don’t have a history of failure so it is not likely that there is a design flaw or a workmanship defect.


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2022, 20:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
tail parts were found across the street. If you exceed Vne and then pull to the stop you can break any airplane. When the tail comes off the plane can pitch pretty violently.

Mooney owner lore is that the Mooney wing has never suffered a documented failure in the positive direction.(i.e. "it's not a Piper nor Cessna 210"). There were 2 accidents where they concluded that the Mooneys flipped upside down at high altitude in a storm and the wing failed in the negative direction in a screaming descent. The Mooney community believes in a recent Mooneyspace topic "The recent Bravo was the only modern Mooney inflight spar failure that I found, where the wing(s) failed in the positive direction."

This unfortunate Bravo accident involved an Instrument rated pilot in mild IMC at low altitude. You don't usually see Mooney wings or stabilizers come off like this. You are right when you lose a stabilizer you lose all control. But the chain of events are not clear in this crash. There may be more to this one than pilot induced forces. These are 30, 40 and 50+ year old planes that we take for granted as being nearly indestructible in normal flight. I am just saying don't be surprised if something comes out of the Final that leads to a SB or AD.


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2022, 22:01 
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The details are not certain yet, but the audio transcript the guy seemed little bit confused or behind the airplane and it’s pretty well known that he popped out of the clouds at a very high angle and a very high speed.. Most pilots put hard if not to the stop.


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2022, 13:09 
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The Mooney wing is not bullet proof. The Mooney wing is stout, stouter than most aircraft but it is not failure proof. The airplane that suffered wing failure in a storm was documented to experience 24Gs, so much the occupants were ejected by failure of the floor. I don't know any airplane that can stand 24G.

As for the Minnesota crash, I'm a wait and see guy. Anything beyond is pure speculation. It may be bad news, it may not.

One of the things that spooked me away from earlier model Bonanzas, (sorry guys I know this is heresy here) is the spar web AD every 500 hours and the wings bolts. Even if you install the reinforcing kit, the AD is not eliminated. The inspection is not cheap to accomplish either as it requires substantial disassembly of the interior. The installation of the re-inforcement kit is described by the ABS as "Very challenging to install"

https://www.csobeech.com/files/ABS-SparWebReview.pdf

Equally so the bathtub type wing attachments on the earlier models concerns me. I had two King Airs in a corporate flight operation. When it came time for wing bolts, I chose to replace the bolts rather than NDT them because we were on the leading edge of the program. The first one was discovered to have the chamfer washers on the right wing installed backwards (at the factory), which gouged the bathtub fittings. It required a new wing. The other was immediately inspected and found to have one bolt with the chamfer washer backwards, but there was enough material undamaged to machine the fitting in situ and save the wing.

Point is this. The FAA is now on a "no cracks" policy on structure. The Mooney wing is not bullet proof, but it is more robust than bath tub fittings with tension bolts and less prone to assembly and maintenance errors. To that I can attest.


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2022, 17:56 
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The fact that we're still counting half way through the fingers on one hand the number of wing failures tells me that the Mooney wing isn't beyond failure, but pretty darn strong.

Regarding the Minnesota accident in 2021, pictures of the panel show no secondary attitude indicator. It wouldn't surprise me if he lost his vacuum pump or had an attitude indicator fail and lost control of the airplane in IMC. Then once he came out of the clouds in a dive he over-reacted, pulled back and tore the elevator off. Given all of the circumstances of that accident available so far, that's the theory that makes the most sense to me. Exceeding Vne and then hauling back wouldn't have worked out well in any airplane.


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2022, 18:07 
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I’d say far more often than not, when a Mooney crashes, all the pieces are in the same hole.


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2022, 19:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
I have a few hours in Mooney's from the C to the 201. I never found them that hard to land and they were a pleasure to fly. I liked the manual gear, once I learned the best way to operate it. Thumb down to raise it. Thumb up to lower it but do not place your thumb too high on the handle or you will lose some skin.

Our Citation Ultra is hard to land smooth. I got this years ago about the Ultra/5.

"Greaser landings are 30% skill, 10% luck, 25% localized gravitational variance, 5% annual crop yield, and 30% lunar orbit pattern. If you figure out the "secret" please let me know."



No kidding. I greased one on in the Ultra just last year. Or maybe it was the year before….

Robert T


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2022, 10:48 
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Bob P,
I flew a 2005 Ovation for a couple years for an owner. Wonderful flying machine! Loved it. Sometimes I’d slide the seat all the way back, let the GFC 700 do the work, and just enjoy XM while the world flew by. Miss that bird. The TKS also handled the ice very well. I also considered buying a new Ovation Ultra M20U model. The demonstrator N3345M was the sweetest flying airplane I’ve ever had the blessing of flying. As others have said, it doesn’t tolerate sloppy flying in the landing phase. I found it a pleasure to land and also handled very well in significant crosswinds. Plenty of room for 2 to 3 people, especially if you like each other.


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 Post subject: Re: I own a Mooney: Ask me anything
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2022, 11:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
One of the things that spooked me away from earlier model Bonanzas, (sorry guys I know this is heresy here) is the spar web AD every 500 hours and the wings bolts. Even if you install the reinforcing kit, the AD is not eliminated. The inspection is not cheap to accomplish either as it requires substantial disassembly of the interior.


Most just inspect it at an annual inspection and the extra cost to inspect it is very little...


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