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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 27 May 2022, 23:41 
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Company: Cessna (retired)
Empty weight posted above is about what I remember.

Did some searching and found STC SA2194NM which increases max weight to 10,850 lbs (1000 lb increase) in the Restricted Category. STC holder is AAR but a Cessna structural report is referenced. Like all STC's, the online database does not include things such as limitations that are listed for a regular TC.

I don't think the link which raised the useful load question mentions Restricted Category.


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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 28 May 2022, 00:21 
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
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Aircraft: C560V
Shops get W&B wrong all the time, and this is dangerous.

Have the plane weighed properly and carefully research the STC gross mods.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 28 May 2022, 10:56 
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Joined: 02/24/14
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Location: Ponoka AB
Aircraft: P210N
Username Protected wrote:
We were the next plane on the assembly line, 0012.

Empty weight 6,292, useful load 4,048.

We have VGs, -10 engines, "winglets," and our UL is 10,340 lbs. From the factory it was 9,850.

I don't know of any mods to get over 10,340lbs. Strakes? Mistake?


John

Interesting that you have the next serial no.

I am still curious to explore the performance difference, at least on paper between a 3 vs 4 bladed -10 441. Do you perhaps have a electronic copy of your -10 STC's AFM supplement similar to the one below?

The model description for this plane's engines is TPE 331-10N-511S, the prop RPM is 2000. I assume yours would be around 1600rpm.

I realize this is an academic exercise as real world numbers and these will likely differ with +/- 5-10 knots.

Hilgard


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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 28 May 2022, 11:03 
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Joined: 02/24/14
Posts: 223
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Location: Ponoka AB
Aircraft: P210N
Username Protected wrote:
Empty weight posted above is about what I remember.

Did some searching and found STC SA2194NM which increases max weight to 10,850 lbs (1000 lb increase) in the Restricted Category. STC holder is AAR but a Cessna structural report is referenced. Like all STC's, the online database does not include things such as limitations that are listed for a regular TC.

I don't think the link which raised the useful load question mentions Restricted Category.


Bill

Thanks for looking into that, quite interesting. The more I think about it the max weight on this plane is much more likely to be 10,350lbs. I will know more once I have all the logs under sight and when the pre-buy is done. (For now I just have copies of the pertinent documents)

Hilgard


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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 28 May 2022, 11:52 
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
4 blade props add about 200 fpm and 5 knots over 3 blades, as well as lowering noise levels. It's a more efficient blade. If the 3 blades were faster you wouldn't have 95% of the fleet converting to 4 blade.
That's not what I heard from Merlin operators who compared -10's with 3 and 4 bladed props and of course there is Mike C's voluminous writing about his MU2 experience that also states the 3 blade being faster in cruise.

For the MU2, the "3 blade" airplanes are 2000 RPM, the "4 blade" airplanes are 1591 RPM.

The slower RPM of the 4 blade MU2s is mostly what causes the performance loss. The blade angle is higher and thus the lift vector on each blade is less aligned with the forward direction. This reduces propeller efficiency and prop planes can't go as fast as jets.

For the 441, all engines are 2000 RPM, so the slow RPM blade angle issue doesn't exist.

The 441 came from the factory with 3 blade props. In the US, almost all 441 have -10 conversions and have 4 blade now. A -8 3 blade airplane is rare.

Relative to its peers, 441-0011 is a project plane. Might be worthwhile at the end of the day, but expect to put some effort into it. High time air frame and an engine about to need work, too. The camera port suggests it flew a lot of lower altitude missions and thus may have been subjected to more fatigue cycles than most.

This is a plane that should be bought by an experienced 441 person who has carefully checked it out, not a newbie. If a newbie buys it, they will become an experienced 441 person far more suddenly than they would prefer.

In these unusual current times, any airplane that is still advertised in Controller is either overpriced or has major issues or isn't actually really for sale. Any reasonably priced airplane without major issues has been sold and probably never made it to Controller in the first place. Keep that in mind as you shop.

Mike C.
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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 28 May 2022, 12:26 
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Joined: 08/05/16
Posts: 3097
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Company: Tack Mobile
Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
Username Protected wrote:
We were the next plane on the assembly line, 0012.

Empty weight 6,292, useful load 4,048.

We have VGs, -10 engines, "winglets," and our UL is 10,340 lbs. From the factory it was 9,850.

I don't know of any mods to get over 10,340lbs. Strakes? Mistake?


John

Interesting that you have the next serial no.

I am still curious to explore the performance difference, at least on paper between a 3 vs 4 bladed -10 441. Do you perhaps have a electronic copy of your -10 STC's AFM supplement similar to the one below?

The model description for this plane's engines is TPE 331-10N-511S, the prop RPM is 2000. I assume yours would be around 1600rpm.

I realize this is an academic exercise as real world numbers and these will likely differ with +/- 5-10 knots.

Hilgard


As mike said, also 2000rpm. I’d check FlightAware or adsbexchange for the flight profiles. We see 300 knots which is below the book, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with our plane though. You could also take it up to 280 and record what you see, or better, ask ATC for negative RVSM climb to 350 on the phone before the flight. Keep in mind temps on these engines are artificial numbers, and after hot sections they’ll change and you will probably see better numbers at the same actual temps.

If you take the plane to a Technicair or west Star, I don’t think you’ll need to be an expert on 441s because unlike a piston there are far more required inspections. I can tell you west star squawks EVERYTHING. They flagged a loose piece of foam on our oxygen mask, a spot of oil on carpet on pilots side near pedals, etc. this is a blessing and a curse. Conquests are the cheapest planes they work on. They’re human and will miss some stuff I’m sure, and they are not cheap, but unlike a 421 that is out of annual I don’t think you’ll be playing maintenance catch-up for years.

If it has not had its inspections that is a different story, but even then you can negotiate that into the price. I do think you’ll be in it for $200k with hots and props, and another $60k for an interior, plus the RVSM STC which is needed IMO, I almost never fly below FL300 and usually 340/350. The fuel savings are big and add up. Given the state of the plane I might insist on a 2/3/D as part of the prebuy. That could be six figures but then you know you’re not going to get shocked later and the big inspection is done.

The market has significantly changed just in the last two months. There are now several conquests on the market for sane prices. Fixed, RVSM, new interior, props, and fresh hots I think this is a 1.3-1.4M value plane and I’d guess you could do it for safely less than that.

Also given this plane needs work, I really would send this to a Technicair or West Star. You’ll want them to do a logbook research prebuy and if it were me a phase 2/3 at least and probably D also. If there is a crack in a flap as we had (the skin is very thin) or another hard to find/solve issue you want to know at the start.

There is no other plane like it.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 28 May 2022, 12:41 
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Joined: 02/24/14
Posts: 223
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Location: Ponoka AB
Aircraft: P210N
Username Protected wrote:
For the MU2, the "3 blade" airplanes are 2000 RPM, the "4 blade" airplanes are 1591 RPM.

The slower RPM of the 4 blade MU2s is mostly what causes the performance loss. The blade angle is higher and thus the lift vector on each blade is less aligned with the forward direction. This reduces propeller efficiency and prop planes can't go as fast as jets.

For the 441, all engines are 2000 RPM, so the slow RPM blade angle issue doesn't exist


Thanks, I did not realize the 4 blade in the 441 is still turning at 2000rpm. That would explain why the difference between the 3 and 4 in the 441 is not as pronounced as in the Merlin or MU2.

The props can be converted to 4 blade, according to one website I found for $82K. It's an academic exercise for me at this point to understand the differences in performance between the two.

Quote:
Relative to its peers, 441-0011 is a project plane. Might be worthwhile at the end of the day, but expect to put some effort into it. High time air frame and an engine about to need work, too. The camera port suggests it flew a lot of lower altitude missions and thus may have been subjected to more fatigue cycles than most.


$500k entry into the TP market, plus 3-400k to get it up to speed still seems like a reasonable way to proceed. The plane has some advantages, it was mostly maintained by WestStar, the other engine is low time ~1500 hours, props were OH'd in 2019, It has RVSM, it has a modern autopilot. Interior is ugly but we can fix that. Paint scheme is not what I like but we can live with it and it's fairly new (2018). Meggitt avionics cannot be repaired but I have someone willing to sell me a removed Meggitt system to have as a back up.

The airframe time is not that high in my opinion. 14300 hours still leaves 8200 hours before the airframe limit is reached. At 150-200 hours a year that is still 40 years of life left. And as we previously talked about it the 22,500 hour life limit will likely not apply to us as we will operate it US registered.

Quote:
This is a plane that should be bought by an experienced 441 person who has carefully checked it out, not a newbie. If a newbie buys it, they will become an experienced 441 person far more suddenly than they would prefer.


We are getting an experienced shop to do a pre-buy. This will be the third Conquest we look at. (Plus a Merlin IIIA that turned out to be a nightmare with deferred maintenance worth $200k) So we are getting experienced at "kicking tires". I am somewhat familiar with the 400 series airframe after owning the 421 for 7 years and 850 hours. I understand the 441 will be more to maintain.

Quote:
The 441 came from the factory with 3 blade props. In the US, almost all 441 have -10 conversions and have 4 blade now. A -8 3 blade airplane is rare.


You might have missed it but this one does have a -10 conversion.

Quote:
In these unusual current times, any airplane that is still advertised in Controller is either overpriced or has major issues or isn't actually really for sale. Any reasonably priced airplane without major issues has been sold and probably never made it to Controller in the first place. Keep that in mind as you shop.


I mostly agree. However we sold the 421 3 weeks ago so we need another plane sooner than later. I think the market will be better next year with better options and prices, but we have a current business need so w have to find a balance.

Hilgard


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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 28 May 2022, 12:48 
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Joined: 02/24/14
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Location: Ponoka AB
Aircraft: P210N
Quote:
You could also take it up to 280 and record what you see, or better, ask ATC for negative RVSM climb to 350 on the phone before the flight. Keep in mind temps on these engines are artificial numbers, and after hot sections they’ll change and you will probably see better numbers at the same actual temps.


Thanks John. It has RVSM already so that's an added bonus.

We offered $500k pending pre-buy and they have accepted.

I want to take it to a different shop than WesStar and John M seems very satisfied with Kubick Aviation who will do the pre-buy for us, starting June the 6th.

We will see how this turns out.

Hilgard


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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 28 May 2022, 14:55 
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Joined: 08/05/16
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Company: Tack Mobile
Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
You could also take it up to 280 and record what you see, or better, ask ATC for negative RVSM climb to 350 on the phone before the flight. Keep in mind temps on these engines are artificial numbers, and after hot sections they’ll change and you will probably see better numbers at the same actual temps.


Thanks John. It has RVSM already so that's an added bonus.

We offered $500k pending pre-buy and they have accepted.

I want to take it to a different shop than WesStar and John M seems very satisfied with Kubick Aviation who will do the pre-buy for us, starting June the 6th.

We will see how this turns out.

Hilgard


Fantastic! The early serial numbers have various service kits installed (rudder lock, new electrical setup, maybe 10 total available) so something to look for. Also our interior headliner is of a different design than later.

I would ask if that shop has a TPE331 engine diagnostic box, I don’t think you can setup engines without them and there aren’t that many of them out there. I’ll email over some manuals and maintenance things etc. that I have for comparison when I’m back at work.


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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2022, 12:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
Straightflight in Denver can fix the camera holes, that is their primary business (sheet metal et al).


Interesting, I worked with a camera ship for a number of years, 2 camera ports
-10's, 4 bladed props and updated brakes.
It was in the restricted category, can't be too many of those ships around.

A lot of modifications had been done to fit those camera ports in place.


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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2022, 15:57 
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Joined: 08/05/16
Posts: 3097
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Company: Tack Mobile
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Aircraft: C441
Username Protected wrote:
Straightflight in Denver can fix the camera holes, that is their primary business (sheet metal et al).


Interesting, I worked with a camera ship for a number of years, 2 camera ports
-10's, 4 bladed props and updated brakes.
It was in the restricted category, can't be too many of those ships around.

A lot of modifications had been done to fit those camera ports in place.


Last time I was down there they were cutting a camera hole in a Caravan.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2022, 17:21 
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Joined: 08/21/13
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Company: Horizon Aviation
Aircraft: T303, Pitts M12, T-6
We got very close to buying a 441 in Feb/Mar 2020. It made it through pre-buy. The Seller was fantastic and fixed everything during a Phase 2,3,D that Westar did. Then we had to pull the plug because the world fell apart for my plans on Mar 23rd, 2020 due to COVID. It’s too bad - it was a top-of-market 441 at $1.3mm. That same plane today would sell for about $2.3 or so. Amazing. It turns out my family, company, and I survived the financial repercussions of COVID quite well and we wouldn’t have hurt by buying the plane. Alas…

Anyway, my recollection is that during my research I discovered that the GW increases came in three increments. The uppermost kit took the plane to 10,415. “Our” plane was 10,350 and I inquired about what it took to upgrade to 10,415. I was told it was an upgraded metering valve in the MLG shock struts. That was it. I think VGs got it to 10,350 but I can’t be sure. I don’t remember what got the first increment.

Z


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 Post subject: Re: 3 bladed -10 Conquest II
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2022, 16:55 
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Hilgard, it looks like 011 is still on the market. May I ask why you walked away?


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