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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 25 May 2022, 22:17 
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There are only 2 planes that can meet all of your requirements, including a/c. A C421 or an MU2. If you can find a good F model MU2. You'd be set it does everything you need and is relatively inexpensive and very reliable. Not to mention 270-280ktas. It will easily go into a 3700' airport, even on a hot day. The 421 will do the job too, it's just not as reliable. With the price of planes these days, you may want to consider a 73-74 421B. I had one and loved it, more importantly my family loved it. It is very comfortable for 6 people. 6 people will not enjoy a Baron. After all a Baron is a Bonanza with an extra engine. Good plane but very tight.
Final note, other than annual training and 20% more expensive insurance, my MU2 cost no more to operate than my 421.


I would echo this. There are also a few more obscure choices as well (some commanders, a Navajo, etc) but these are the most mainline choices - especially if you consider ac and pressurization a must.

I would also echo my prior recommendations and those of others about buying something smaller first. I had similar calculus to you a few years ago and now primarily just fly a 2 seater. It’s extremely fun (aerobatic even), as cheap as you can get, and I have just sacrificed the other missions (that I can’t cover with a flying club plane) in the interim. It does 95% of my missions, which are realistically solo with a tag a long I don’t have to bring unless the mood suits me.

You also mentioned an Aztec. As noted in a subsequent post, while it can do a lot, the ergonomics of loading it (particularly if you are trying to take 6) is a nightmare. The rear doors of a lance/a36/baron/etc are huge in my opinion. That said, an Aztec is a great first multi. Regardless, you will need an ir and mel rating to get any multi insurance in this market so finish them up asap.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 25 May 2022, 22:26 
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Joined: 08/20/09
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Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
We're talking pre-PPL here guys.

Buy a mid-2000's Cirrus. The ladies will love it and you'll have minimal financial risk.

Get your PPL & IR and then figure out what fits the current mission at that time.

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 25 May 2022, 23:00 
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Joined: 10/24/19
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Location: Central NY, (N03)
Aircraft: 421C
Tripp,

Sadly, you’ll learn that just because an airplane is equipped with 6 (or more) seats, that doesn’t necessarily mean that you can actually put 6 adults in them, fill up the gas tanks, (forget about any baggage) and fly away. Not in the G.A. world anyways. This is the challenge that we all face when flying our old piston jobs, (twins included). I agree that your second mission may be better served with a TP, but it sounds like you and your Buddy are within my same piston driving budget. The acquisition alone is beyond our reach. An argument can be made that the cost per mile may be better due to speed but, have you seen the price of Jet-A lately? It’s actually more than Avgas now! You’ll also be nickel and dimed by the fbo’s where ever you go because you showed up in a TP, with higher handling fees, parking, hangar, etc. Inspections are more involved and you better be on an engine program too! Believe me when I say that It’s definitely worth it! But, the well only runs so deep.. If I could afford it, I’d make the leap into the TP world. I’d also own more than one airplane if I could afford it. But, it’s just not gonna happen..

Back to your missions - I owned a C-210 for over 6 years. Great airplane and considerable hauler for single engine. Moved right along at 155-160kts. With full fuel (90 gal), I could carry about 900 lbs of payload, which is a lot for a single. It had 6 seats BUT, the rear two were really only for children. Start by weighing yourself and your 5 friends with their clothes on and tell them to just bring their wallets as baggage. See what kind of payload you’re really looking at. Go from there.

PlanePHd and Aviation Consumer are great resources for determining how to fulfill your mission(s). Remember, the ‘useful load’ numbers provided in aircraft specs does not include the weight of your fuel. Avgas is 6 lbs/gal. Using my 210 as an example - Useful load was 1470lbs - 540lbs of fuel = 930 lbs - 30lbs of crap in the seat backs, baggage compartment, etc. = 900 lbs. But, that’s with full fuel - which is how I like to leave the earth.

I now own a C-421C, which meets my family hauling mission. Expensive but, not unaffordable. Comfortable, safe, smooth and quiet. Everyone loves it. 2 relief tubes (one for me up front), one in the back with the dry potty for the gals. Full mains (206 gals) and I can still carry 1100lbs in the cabin. You’ll be pressed to find another piston twin that can do the same, in pressurized comfort @ FL250.

You’re doing your homework and that’s good! The folks on BT are another great resource and I am privileged to listen to what they have to say. I’m constantly learning from them.

Buy the plane that meets your mission.

Best!
John


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 26 May 2022, 12:36 
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Joined: 08/21/14
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Location: KPDK
Aircraft: C421B MU2-40 Solitai
Here's a great deal that fits your mission and budget. Its a 1975 421B

https://www.ebay.com/itm/394089646914

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 26 May 2022, 17:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
Here's a great deal that fits your mission and budget. Its a 1975 421B

https://www.ebay.com/itm/394089646914



ROTFLMAO!!! :rofl:

Seriously?

Budget? I guarantee you, there is not a budget big enough for that airplane.

From the eBay:

" Sold business in 2019 and stopped flying it. So I am finally deciding to sell it."

and...

"Airplane is in perfect mechanical condition. However, it is currently out of annual, needs IFR cert, ELT, O/2 bottle cert. "

And if you look on Flightaware, the very last time that airplane hit the sky was in 2019.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 26 May 2022, 17:53 
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I also have the Lee Aerospace Coolview windows, they help tremendously to keep the heat from building in the first place

Squawk 7500...

What do you think of visibility out of those windows? It it a replacement for the factory window, on an insert on the inside?

I have the electronically dimming LCD windows and the visibility through them when they're in "clear" mode is noticeably poor. They haven't aged well.

Back to the main thread - I second, or third, or 4th an MU-2.


Took these today for you, you tell me?

Polarizers open
Attachment:
AAD142E3-52DC-4B2A-B9D4-FEA4D364AAE9.jpeg


Polarizers closed
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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 26 May 2022, 18:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
I also have the Lee Aerospace Coolview windows, they help tremendously to keep the heat from building in the first place

That's neat.

What state do they go to without power? Dark or open? That is, how do you make them dark when the plane is parked?

They won't work quite as well as a proper sunshade since they absorb the light instead of reflecting it outward with a light colored shade.

Quote:
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that - GCarlin

Stupid people also confuse "average" and "median" a lot, too.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 26 May 2022, 18:43 
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Username Protected wrote:

What state do they go to without power? Dark or open? That is, how do you make them dark when the plane is parked?

They won't work quite as well as a proper sunshade since they absorb the light instead of reflecting it outward with a light colored shade.



It’s a film in the glass, reflects all the UV out so it never hits the polarizers

No power or anything, it’s the same glass they put in the cirrus jet, I ran temp sensors in plane on ramp over wknd before and after the coolview windows install, and it was a large difference, and no risk to damage on the polarizers which is nice


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 26 May 2022, 19:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
I also have the Lee Aerospace Coolview windows, they help tremendously to keep the heat from building in the first place

That's neat.

What state do they go to without power? Dark or open? That is, how do you make it dark when the plane is parked?

They won't work quite as well as a proper sunshade since they absorb the light instead of reflecting it outward with a light colored shade.

Quote:
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that - GCarlin

Stupid people also confuse "average" and "median" a lot, too.

Mike C.


What about people that redundantly use also and too in the same sentence…
:beechslap: ;)

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 27 May 2022, 06:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
Here's a great deal that fits your mission and budget. Its a 1975 421B

https://www.ebay.com/itm/394089646914



ROTFLMAO!!! :rofl:

Seriously?

Budget? I guarantee you, there is not a budget big enough for that airplane.

From the eBay:

" Sold business in 2019 and stopped flying it. So I am finally deciding to sell it."

and...

"Airplane is in perfect mechanical condition. However, it is currently out of annual, needs IFR cert, ELT, O/2 bottle cert. "

And if you look on Flightaware, the very last time that airplane hit the sky was in 2019.


At the right price… and $175 probably isn’t it, that could be a reasonable option. Bigger issues i see is potential maintenance downtime for bug-sorting won’t serve mission 1 well and that really isn’t a new owner airplane even if it’s in tip top shape.

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 27 May 2022, 06:52 
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Username Protected wrote:

Budget? I guarantee you, there is not a budget big enough for that airplane.

From the eBay:

" Sold business in 2019 and stopped flying it. So I am finally deciding to sell it."

and...

"Airplane is in perfect mechanical condition. However, it is currently out of annual, needs IFR cert, ELT, O/2 bottle cert. "

And if you look on Flightaware, the very last time that airplane hit the sky was in 2019.


At the right price… and $175 probably isn’t it, that could be a reasonable option. Bigger issues i see is potential maintenance downtime for bug-sorting won’t serve mission 1 well and that really isn’t a new owner airplane even if it’s in tip top shape.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 27 May 2022, 11:49 
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Thoughts on an Aztec? Seems to be biggish cabin, high useful load, cheap, and slow. Considering most trips will be short, it makes sense to me having never been in one.

From an pov of ignorance it seems to make sense for the following reasons:
B58 will do it for sure, but cabin seems tighter and higher acquisition cost than Aztec.
P32, C210, A36 all would be great for M1 but on M2 (keeping in mind that we are owning the fact that the long trip just won’t work and limiting trip to short flight) it seems like we would be looking more at day trips with the wives. Or at least not a multiple pairs or shoes trip. These limitations are also not a dealbreaker, because that would be a lot of fun. But it seems like the acquisition cost is actually less for an Aztec and the opex doesn’t look bad.

Aerostar 610 looks awesome but I’m concerned it’s too fast and won’t like the 3700’ runway I’d like to get into. Would love some more feedback on this plane. It’s fast! One note is that the 3700’ runway would be M1 only. So never more than 4 people and never a bring a bag trip, just in for meetings and back home. All heavy trips could be to longer strips.

What am I missing on the Aztec? As stated before, cheap planes are usually cheap for a reason. I’m hoping that speed is the only reason.



I have an aztec E. It was a pig to get fixed up into shape but now I love it. Buy the nicest one you can find for 350k will be VERY nice indeed and will have features and avionics of a 500k baron or bonanza.

Cliff notes:
1000 lbs in the cabin can go 1000 miles at 165-170kts. It may not be comfortable but it can do it and I've gone 5 plus hours non stop before solo and with a pilot friend. For non pilot passengers (ie my little kids and wife) 2 legs of 3 hours gets us just about anywhere as fast as or faster than the airlines with a couple of kids books and one disney movie on an Ipad.

Perfect for the sub 500 mile flights. Wide spacious cabin. 2 large baggage compartments. Large CG range Simple robust systems. 3 rows face forward, first two rows with adjustable seats is a very comfortable way to seat 6. We have one middle row removed and its Limo like comfy for 4-5 people.


AC would be nice but the cold air is ducted to each overhead seat cools off fast enough. Heat is good in winter and keeps us warm at altitude in the summer. I can't imagine replacing it for anything except another Aztec with Turbos or an Mu2 or cheyenne. For our family to get more utility and for us that means SPACE or LOAD, I'd have to go turbine. Or Twin Bonanza! But the twin Bo won't fit in my hangar.

There's a good aztec thread on here.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 27 May 2022, 12:15 
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Location: DeLand, Florida KDED
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An A36 is a decent plane for mission 1. Easier to fly, insure and sell. A good place to start. Decide if aviation is for you, then you can easily move up, or get out before you buy a plane for mission 2.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 27 May 2022, 12:48 
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Operated an Aztec E for ten years. Relatively vice free with a Super Cub airfoil and IO-540 reliability - and good de-icing capability, courtesy of the thick draggy airfoil. Diamondaire in Montana provide a good spare parts service.

Good passenger comfort, and while it will cruise at 175KTAS, more typically I operated at 10,000 feet 155KTAS and around 22 USGPH with GAMIs. Quite a load carrier, an E typically 1800 lbs U/L, but a C closer to 2000 lbs U/L. Quite comfortable on 500nm sectors. Very capable on shorter, less improved runways, the landing gear being both forgiving and robust, although propeller clearance not great.

It has hydraulic system for both landing gear and flaps, and a fair amount of hoses to maintain. I would certainly fly one before purchasing. I tend to think the C through E are the sweet spot with the 144 USG fuel system, rather than the six tank system of the later F. The F tried to resolve the trim change when deploying flaps, but am not sure about the system's effectiveness or reliability. They also added extra fuel tanks as an option, which makes the handling even more ponderous. Useful load also suffered with the F.

Like all piston twins it requires hands on supervision of the maintenance program, and preventive OH of components probably advised.

The airframe is solid with factory zinc chromate so investing in the airframe is worthwhile. That is, money spent on the aircraft should conserve value.

There was a time when an Aztec could be found for $40k with plenty of life in it!


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 27 May 2022, 12:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
Took these today for you, you tell me?

They look significantly better than my windows.

Mike C:

I have electronic LCD windows. They definitely have a "cool" factor when the salesman shows them off, but they don't age well. They're streaky and there's a ring around the edge that now stays dark permanently. They go dark when power is removed, so at shutdown all the windows go dark immediately. That's the only advantage.

I'm pulling them and switching to manual pleated shades. One problem with the manual rotary polarizers, from my sunny point of view, is that you're not supposed to leave them in dark mode when parked. They'll absorb too much heat and warp.


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