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28 Mar 2024, 19:43 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 11:11 
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This seems odd with the PA46 lumped in there with the others. Have you ever sat passenger in a PA46? I have flown a lot of first class, and have had rare occasions to sit in the back of some of my PA46 variants. Hands down, the paying seats, especially the 2 rear seats of the PA46 are better than first class. Unless you are in the lay flats of some airliners. I have flown a lot of non-pilot pax over the years, and have yet to have anything other than Wow comments.


So where's the lav? 2-3hr flight with business associates, you need a lav option of some sort, even a relief tube, I assume it has those


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 13:00 
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Alright, I will be the crotchety turbine guy here…

This a mission for a 90, 425, MU2, 690 All day long.

3 passengers plus pilot. 4 people. Baron or A36 or SR22 or PA46 you are climbing in and sitting in weird positions. All nice aircraft for pilots, most “non-plane” people think it is nuts. Akin to a Volkswagen Beetle for the 58 or 36. SR22 or PA46 more modern, but still weird.



This seems odd with the PA46 lumped in there with the others. Have you ever sat passenger in a PA46? I have flown a lot of first class, and have had rare occasions to sit in the back of some of my PA46 variants. Hands down, the paying seats, especially the 2 rear seats of the PA46 are better than first class. Unless you are in the lay flats of some airliners. I have flown a lot of non-pilot pax over the years, and have yet to have anything other than Wow comments.

Here are some of my previous cabins, and the last one a week ago enjoying a transcontinental flight Florida to Utah, taking a quick nap in the back while my buddy flew us over the Rockies.

The PA46 is a personal little airliner. Unfortunately, these deluxe M-class Pipers are not in the price range of the OP's desire, but the older PA46's offer similar comfort for a bargain price.

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Yes, have been in a Meridian plenty. A King Air it is not. You are still basically "crawling" in. King Air is not stand up either, but a foot more than a PA46.

Don't get me wrong, PA46 (all versions) are awesome planes! Just not something that you would "charter" people in. Your plane is awesome!

In the minds of non-plane people, these are all "tin cans", as they are smaller than a 737...

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 14:33 
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Won’t kick on without GPU/Ext Power, or you can run it off one engine turning- usually the right engine so you can pax load- anyways, I was mostly providing a compelling reason to consider the 90 for his mission, it’s a very very nice perk to have the ground cooling ability, was a huge factor for me

Ok, so in the finest BT tradition, thread drift imminent....

Can you all tell me how ground cooling works when owner-flown? Here's a common scenario for me - a day trip to a theme park or the beach. Plane has been sitting outside for hours. Even with the shades drawn and cover over the cockpit, it'll be 105F inside when we arrive. Up to this point I've opened the door to let some heat out while I preflight and then we get in and go. It's pretty short to get the engines turning and AC on but it's definitely hot for a good bit.

Obviously if I had a contract pilot they could get it cooled down while we were driving to the airport. But if you're the pilot, do you plug in a GPU and let the A/C run while hanging out in the FBO for 15 minutes while it cools down? In my experience I want to go ahead and get in the air vs waiting around just to get the cabin temp down.

My passengers are always family and friends and are flying for free so no one complains but I am open to making the experience more comfortable for people. GPUs just seem clunky.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 14:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
Won’t kick on without GPU/Ext Power, or you can run it off one engine turning- usually the right engine so you can pax load- anyways, I was mostly providing a compelling reason to consider the 90 for his mission, it’s a very very nice perk to have the ground cooling ability, was a huge factor for me

Ok, so in the finest BT tradition, thread drift imminent....

Can you all tell me how ground cooling works when owner-flown? Here's a common scenario for me - a day trip to a theme park or the beach. Plane has been sitting outside for hours. Even with the shades drawn and cover over the cockpit, it'll be 105F inside when we arrive. Up to this point I've opened the door to let some heat out while I preflight and then we get in and go. It's pretty short to get the engines turning and AC on but it's definitely hot for a good bit.

Obviously if I had a contract pilot they could get it cooled down while we were driving to the airport. But if you're the pilot, do you plug in a GPU and let the A/C run while hanging out in the FBO for 15 minutes while it cools down? In my experience I want to go ahead and get in the air vs waiting around just to get the cabin temp down.

My passengers are always family and friends and are flying for free so no one complains but I am open to making the experience more comfortable for people. GPUs just seem clunky.


My normal routine is, call the airport on the way to make sure the GPU is at the plane. Show up, start the GPU, get the air going immediately. Then, load the bags, get a clearance, bathroom one last time, grab the family from the fbo, and go. By the time my family is getting in, the airplane is hot but not unbearable.

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 15:22 
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What he said

Or Pay for a hangar


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 15:58 
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That makes sense. The KA is definitely a step up in pax comfort but also quite a step up in all around costs. Seems like the OP is pretty price sensitive. Sometimes you just can’t get what you want for what you are wanting or willing to pay. ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 16:53 
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My normal routine is, call the airport on the way to make sure the GPU is at the plane. Show up, start the GPU, get the air going immediately. Then, load the bags, get a clearance, bathroom one last time, grab the family from the fbo, and go. By the time my family is getting in, the airplane is hot but not unbearable.



This, and at one particular airport I have a spot picked out that shades over after 2pm

I also have the Lee Aerospace Coolview windows, they help tremendously to keep the heat from building in the first place

If GPU is not avail, I’ll start the right engine into feather and turn on AC, then when airstairs close I unfeather and start the left engine, ac blows ice cold fairly quickly


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 17:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
That makes sense. The KA is definitely a step up in pax comfort but also quite a step up in all around costs. Seems like the OP is pretty price sensitive. Sometimes you just can’t get what you want for what you are wanting or willing to pay. ;-)

Yeah... we currently don't have a plane in service. I want to make sure we use one like I think we will before we get carried away with a KA, Citation, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 19:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
My normal routine is, call the airport on the way to make sure the GPU is at the plane. Show up, start the GPU, get the air going immediately. Then, load the bags, get a clearance, bathroom one last time, grab the family from the fbo, and go. By the time my family is getting in, the airplane is hot but not unbearable.

That's typical.

I lower the side window shades and install sun shields in the cockpit, which help a lot.

Someday, for my Citation, I will work out a way to enable Freon AC when someone puts in the GPU plug. Then I can have FBO do that 30 min before arrival. Needs some wiring tweaks but that's my specialty. Would be a nice STC.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 21:49 
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What minimum useful load would you be comfortable with on a 300 mile trek? 1070lbs of people. We’ll assume 5000’ runway at sea level. In my mind for a trip that distance you wouldn’t need to top off the tanks.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 21:56 
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What minimum useful load would you be comfortable with on a 300 mile trek? 1070lbs of people. We’ll assume 5000’ runway at sea level. In my mind for a trip that distance you wouldn’t need to top off the tanks.


In my 90, you could take 384gal (full tanks) and still be under gross with that weight, just a datapoint

For 300 miles, half that fuel would still be too much


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 22:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
Yeah... we currently don't have a plane in service. I want to make sure we use one like I think we will before we get carried away with a KA, Citation, etc.

You need and A36 or B58, and a dry lease on a 425 or KA. That will quickly tell you whether or not General Aviation is a good move for you.

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 22:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
What minimum useful load would you be comfortable with on a 300 mile trek? 1070lbs of people. We’ll assume 5000’ runway at sea level. In my mind for a trip that distance you wouldn’t need to top off the tanks.


300nm = 2 hours fuel burn in a piston aircraft. Call it 3 hours to dry tanks accounting for reserve, manuevering, etc. 50-60 gallons in a single, 80-100 gallons in a twin. So 1400lbs UL for the single and 1650 in the twin.

You could potentially fudge the fuel numbers down a touch, but you get into practical issues of reliably measuring small volumes as well as making sure that you don't leave the tanks too full from a previous flight.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 22:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
What minimum useful load would you be comfortable with on a 300 mile trek? 1070lbs of people. We’ll assume 5000’ runway at sea level. In my mind for a trip that distance you wouldn’t need to top off the tanks.

For 1,070 lbs of people and bags you're going to need roughly 1,500 lbs useful load to go 300 miles in a single.

20 gph x 2 hr flight time + 1 hr reserve = 360 lbs fuel, or 1,430 useful required. Those are rough numbers of the cuff, but that's going to be a tough ask in a single.

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 25 May 2022, 00:00 
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Mission 1: business travel for me, two other people, plus pilot. Trips will be there and backs in the 150-250nm range about two times a week. Once or twice a quarter we’ll do an overnight trip of 700nm.

Mission 2: Three couples goofing off. Long trip would be 700-1000nm probably 2-3 times a year. Could see 1-2 weekends a month of a 250nm or less trip. Need enough useful load to take some bags, but not expecting to haul the kitchen sink.

The quandary: this needs to be the same plane. I’d like it to be economical enough to use often for work in the short trips but have enough room to shoot down to the Bahamas or Nashville to goof off.

My buddy who’s going to own the plane with me will be able to fly mission 2. I’m still learning to fly so the business trips will be with a pro pilot when said buddy is not available. He is a commercial crop duster pilot and flys about every day. He is twin licensed, IFR, etc, etc. He owns several ag planes, but is looking to get in to a family plane. I’m mostly here to help pay for it and enjoy the benefits.

We are bouncing around all over the place:
Barron 58
Cessna 210
A36 Bonanza
Cessna 414

Looking to stay below $350k on acquisition cost but could spend up to $450k. Doesn’t need to have mahogany bookshelves but would be nice to have enough runway appeal to make the wives feel special.
OPEX needs to be low enough to remotely justify not driving the 3-4 hour business trips, hotel, etc. To get the time back would be worth a lot to me.

Thanks in advance for the insight on a topic that I’m sure has been discussed often.


Tripp,
I hate to be the nattering neighbob, but there is no plane that fits your requirements with that budget. Mission #1 requires 800-900 lbs of payload which leaves very little room for fuel in an A36 unless you get an early model A36 with a great useful load. Mission #2 requires almost 1400 lbs of payload (7 people with 20 lbs bags) and a Baron can not do that. A C414A or C421C comes close but a turbine is a better fit. You will not get into a turbine for $350-450k and you will have a hard time finding a good C421C or C414A for that price tag.

There is a lot of junk on the market right now and any decent plane is going to be priced higher than what your budget calls for.

Chris C.


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