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28 Mar 2024, 20:51 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 13:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
And no, mission #1 is NOT 135. You own the plane and hire a pilot. Part 91 all the way


He owns the plane and hires a pilot AND provides carriage to third parties. It's a 135 operation if he's the pilot, how does that change if he hires the pilot?


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 13:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
He owns the plane and hires a pilot AND provides carriage to third parties.

He isn't "providing carriage" if the other folks in the plane are sharing a common purpose (doing business at the destination) and flying is incidental to the business.

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It's a 135 operation if he's the pilot, how does that change if he hires the pilot?

It doesn't, and it isn't 135 just because there are others on board.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 14:51 
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Location: DeLand, Florida KDED
Aircraft: 1984 A36 (TAT TN)
Three couple 1000 nm is really too much for an A36. We have done 6 hour legs with 2 adults and 3 small children on board, one family, and that's totally fine. Even enjoyable for aviation enthusiasts like us. But I would not take 2 other couples on that trip, 6 adults plus bags likely considerably exceeds weight/balance.

You are looking at a big plane for mission 2. Turbine probably the best.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 15:03 
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Username Protected wrote:
Also, without knowing more details it sounds like the FAA would consider mission #1 a 135 operation.

Only if the flying wasn't "incidental" to the business.

Otherwise, mission #1 is a very common part 91 operation, even if the pilot is hired.

Mike C.


It all depends on where the money is coming from.

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 15:32 
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according to my pilot , if you do it right and send the info to the FAA you can own it and fly it as the pilot (get paid for your time) for a dry lease to someone else as long as you do it on a lease to just a few people.

second on the aircraft choice , if you really want to do 3 couples and stuff look at a Navajo Chieftain. will carry up to 8, known Ice and turbocharged so flying above the turbulence at 12000 is easy. I have a friend who uses one for flights up to 800 miles regularly. It has relatively simple systems. not pressurized


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 15:36 
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Username Protected wrote:

It all depends on where the money is coming from.



True. The usual situation is that the plane owner is the business owner and is paying the expenses for him and people he employs or directs. If someone else is paying the expenses that could be a different situation.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 16:02 
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Really appreciate all of the great feedback! Based on the consensus, it makes sense to go with Delta or charter for Mission 2 if longer than comfort allows. Or, if a deal on a MU2 comes along we might look at that option.

With this in mind, let's focus on Mission 1 and move Mission 2 to a less than 300nm range.

Seems like the PA32, 210, A36, or Barron 58 might fit the ticket. My main concern with an old piston is repairs and maintenance. (Insert "that's why you need to buy the turbine plane" comment here). Of these options, are there any concerns with part availability or support from Cessna/Beech/Piper/whoever that should be considered? We'll fly out of a 5000' strip and will land frequently at a 3700' strip. I don't see any of this as a concern, but thought I'd throw it out there. All flat country FL, GA, AL.

Not trying to start a twin vs single debate, but how much more would the B58 cost to operate? Twice? $100 an hour more? My partner in this has about 300 hours in a B55 and really liked the airplane, but that's his only real twin time.


Last edited on 23 May 2022, 16:31, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 16:22 
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It seems like the acquisition cost on any of these is about the same.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 16:22 
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You might want to find a local owner willing to show you their plane and let you put 3 adults in the back of a 36/58 to see if the fit/squeeze is going to be acceptable to you and them. The back two seats are small and leg room gets tight when there are 6-8 adult length legs involved.

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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 16:40 
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Mission 2 is not a fit for a piston single unless the men are 5’7” 150 and the women are 5’1” 110. Just not. Especially because you will want a/c

Baron 58 is your sweet spot especially with your partners experience. Easy to find, easy to sell, easy to maintain.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 16:48 
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Another thought: how good does the factory air conditioning on these planes really work (assuming good condition)? Considering that it is hot all the time here, I wouldn't want to own a truck without A/C. I have never really been in a GA plane that had A/C. I just can't imagine the A/C on a 1970-80 model anything working worth a flip. Trying to figure out how much value to put on that convenience. It's hot in FL.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 16:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
Especially because you will want a/c


Reading my mind.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 17:03 
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Location: Tucson, AZ (winter) & Brunswick, ME (summer)
Aircraft: T210, Aerostar 702P
3,700' strip adds an additional constraint. For example, I wouldn't take my Aerostar with six people into a strip that short.

I'm thinking a turbo Aztec meets all your useful load and range needs, has no problem on the field length, etc. It's big inside, but not super easy to get into; the third row seats of require some mild gymnastics.

Aztecs aren't super fast, but boy will they carry a load. If you want pressurized, and are willing to use longer runways when full of people & fuel, an Aerostar 601P or 700 would do that mission, maybe a Baron 58P... but I agree with the "go turbine" directionality of this thread.

Six in a piston single, they need to be family, and pack light. Six in a piston twin, at least they should be friendly. Six business associates you want to impress? King Air, MU-2, Cheyenne, Conquest, Turbine Aero Commander... or any small jet.

My $0.02 FWIW


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 17:27 
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Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
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yes factory single systems are awful.
Singles loaded to the gills also climb SLOW and it can take ages to reach cool, smooth air

There is an art too successfully using piston air conditioning.
First of all you pay to hanger the plane no matter what it costs, because if the plane has been sitting on the ramp in Florida it will be an oven until you get above 8000 feet. You’ll be drenched in sweat before you takeoff. Like you may have a visible salt crust on you when you land.

You pre-flight the plane in the hanger. You load the plane in the hanger. Then you get them to tow you out. You fire up, turn on the air-conditioning and go. In this scenario your passengers will be merely uncomfortable, not beading sweat.


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 Post subject: Re: New mission, new plane advice
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 18:05 
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Username Protected wrote:

You pre-flight the plane in the hanger. You load the plane in the hanger. Then you get them to tow you out. You fire up, turn on the air-conditioning and go. In this scenario your passengers will be merely uncomfortable, not beading sweat.


KA 90 let’s you ground cool before you even start the engines, you can get the cabin very comfortable before departure, no sweating involved


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