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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 07 May 2022, 12:46 
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While I'm glad to hear that the documents and tooling wasn't trashed, as was previously reported, it will be a long road.

Cougars are cool, though, and I wish them all the luck in the world.

Best,
Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 07 May 2022, 20:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
Cougars are cool, though.......
Best,
Rich



Cougars are indeed cool! So much so, I own TWO of them!!! A 1968 and a 1988!!! Someday, I'll complete the tri-fecta with a nice '78!

Wait, we are talking cars here, yes???? :duck:

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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 07 May 2022, 21:47 
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It will need to have something “more”. That more could be upping hp to 180 or 200 as an option. TKS would be gravy. Would need a GW increase also. That would fill not only fill the training niche,
You would dip into personally owned planes and possibly some charter ops.

Lofty goals for the cougar.

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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 08 May 2022, 11:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
It will need to have something “more”. That more could be upping hp to 180 or 200 as an option. TKS would be gravy. Would need a GW increase also. That would fill not only fill the training niche,
You would dip into personally owned planes and possibly some charter ops.

Lofty goals for the cougar.


This is where you get into "mission creep". Don't get me wrong, lots, and lots of airframes went down that same path. I'm sure the same folks who stroked the design for the original 210 would have lookout at a P210R and said "WTF?".

The Cougar is a "light-light twin" in the same vein as a Twinkie, Seminole and Duchii. Toss on TKS/boots, radar, bigger engines, 2 more seats, etc, etc, and pretty soon, it's not, and you've got a very expensive boat with low UL.

Best,
Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 08 May 2022, 11:45 
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This is where you get into "mission creep". Don't get me wrong, lots, and lots of airframes went down that same path. I'm sure the same folks who stroked the design for the original 210 would have lookout at a P210R and said "WTF?".

The Cougar is a "light-light twin" in the same vein as a Twinkie, Seminole and Duchii. Toss on TKS/boots, radar, bigger engines, 2 more seats, etc, etc, and pretty soon, it's not, and you've got a very expensive boat with low UL.

Best,
Rich


Which is exactly why my F33A had a bigger useful load than a brand new G36.


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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 09 May 2022, 16:38 
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If they bring it back to commercial sales, it needs to run on either 94UL or Jet-A.

Seriously, eliminate the need for 100LL and you have a deal. If it runs on 100 or 94UL avgas, that's the right trick.

Everything else, don't matter. Modern panel, whatever safety features are required.


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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 09 May 2022, 23:04 
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Username Protected wrote:
If they bring it back to commercial sales, it needs to run on either 94UL or Jet-A.

Seriously, eliminate the need for 100LL and you have a deal. If it runs on 100 or 94UL avgas, that's the right trick.

Everything else, don't matter. Modern panel, whatever safety features are required.


The 160 hp Lycomings were originally certified for 91 octane avgas, so they should do just fine on the UL 94 avgas marketed by Swift Fuels.


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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 12 May 2022, 14:03 
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Grumman American (really Gulfstream/Gulfstream American) upgraded the initial single spar to a double spar configuration. The Cougar is not really a twin-engine tiger but is sure looked like it. The AA-5B Tiger had a 12,000 hour limitation on several spar components as well as inspections to check for corrosion on the spar cap. There were some spar components life-limited at 12,500. The shoulder bolts had a 7,250 hour life limit if I recall correctly.

There were a few reasons that the Tiger and Cougar stopped production. Some were related to fuel availability and costs in the last 70s. Some were related to insurance rates. What's funny is that some mobsters went to prison for charging interest rates lower than what were legally being charged in the 70s. In December 1979 interest rates were around 10%, up from 5.65% or 5.25% when they started building and selling the Traveller and Tiger AA-5* series of aircraft.

I really had high hopes for the aircraft in 1995 when Socata bought the type. They were going to put on IO-360 engines, which would truly make the plane what it really wanted to be. I am not sure if the TB 360 Tangara would have upped the full fuel useful load from 900 pounds or allowed it to carry another 30 gallons and keep the 900 pounds empty weight.

I enjoy flying both the Cougar and the Twinkie but my heart still belongs to the TravelAir. Unfortunately, I don't think we will ever see another TravelAir, Cougar, or Twinkie manufactured.

The rumor was the last G-II sold came with a free Cougar and Tiger!

The years that I ran the flying club with the Tiger I was thankful for the support from FletchAir!

Username Protected wrote:
IIRC; there is a center section casting(?) that has a 5,000(?) hour life limit. Replacement is non-trivial and expensive.


That was updated to something like 47,000hours

Instructions for Continued Airworthiness Information with respect to service life limited parts on this model is contained in section "Service Life Limited Components" of the Model GA-7 Service Manual. Service life limits appearing in this manual may not be changed without FAA engineering approval. See GA-7 service manual for inspection requirements Service Life Limited parts must be retired in accordance with the following schedule: Component Part Number Service Life (hours) Inboard Spar Assembly 7W10201-1 47,674


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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 12 May 2022, 15:51 
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when I look at the broad market. the only real market out there is one where it buns jet A

the market in the US for Gasoline powered aircraft of this type is saturated with good used aircraft

however the international market is needing a jet A powered engine. look at the sucess of the DA62

So if you put it back into production it needs Diesel or that new turbo tech turbine from France to have a chance of being a viable business.


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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 12 May 2022, 16:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
We must also be aware of the extreme hype over… electric power. Whatever you think about E-power, the simple fact is that not one single version can operate on a day-to-day basis with full certification. (A recent article in Bloomberg Business News pointed out the holes in the Electric mania hype.)


Not exactly open minded here! For a short range commuter, electricity might be smart (in 10-30 years that these projects take to materialize).

Anyhoo, my uncle owns a GA-7. He bought it either brand new, or very close to new. My memory is that they produced a total of 107, when the aviation market was HOT.

Now, this guy thinks that there is a market for more than “one-sy-two-sy” of these, but I don’t see it. At a minimum, it needs to compete against a Cirrus, because that’s what “rich folks” are buying. Two diesel or turboprop engines sound ok, and with such a light airframe, probably the uber lightweight turboprops puts it in an interesting niche.

No matter what, it’s going to be pushing $2 million, but should operate with very high dependability (compared to any piston engine plane). I would require that it have a parachute, like Cirrus. Auto-feather props. AIR CONDITIONING. Reduce the interior cabin noise over a Cirrus.

They would be lucky to build 10-20 per year… very lucky. Let’s say two a month. That requires a strip mall store front sized shop to build, so that would be cheap. I don’t know where cheap labor is in the USA, but that’s where I’d start. The old Mooney factory was WAY too big!!

I’d buy that airplane, with a door on both sides (like a Cirrus), a parachute, air conditioning that really worked (not “aircraft quality” garbage), two turboprops, auto feather, auto rudder assist, electric envelope protection (bank angle, stall pusher, etc), and it needed 200+ hp per side, and could travel at 200+ knots.


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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 13 May 2022, 11:49 
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Anyhoo, my uncle owns a GA-7. He bought it either brand new, or very close to new. My memory is that they produced a total of 107, when the aviation market was HOT.

OH MY! He has the original interior and possibly original paint!? That is awesome! I loved those orange interiors when I saw them back in the day. They made me think about the radioactive orange/red fiestaware.

Congrats to your uncle for having one of about 57-ish remaining Cougars. There were 119 built if I recall correctly but the ones remaining on the line, waiting for interiors, when they stopped manufacturing were scrapped. I picked up a whole interior for a Tiger in 1999; I was using it to get it recovered. Before they scrapped it one of the mechanics got approval to remove the parts and had it in his garage. The problem - there was no serial number or N-number or yellow tag so my IA would not let me use the parts.

I also managed to track down a Cougar airframe, which would have been 117, in pieces in a garage in Pooler (outside of Savannah) but the engines and props were sold to a Cougar owner when theirs came up for overhaul in the 80s. However, it had the original panel and most of the interior. Apparently his grandkids liked to sit in the plane and play with it. He wanted too much for it for me to economically repair it and I was running short on funds after spending 2 years IRANing a TravelAir through two annuals and a few 100 hour inspections.


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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 17 May 2022, 13:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
Anyhoo, my uncle owns a GA-7. He bought it either brand new, or very close to new. My memory is that they produced a total of 107, when the aviation market was HOT.

OH MY! He has the original interior and possibly original paint!? That is awesome! I loved those orange interiors when I saw them back in the day. They made me think about the radioactive orange/red fiestaware.

Congrats to your uncle for having one of about 57-ish remaining Cougars. There were 119 built if I recall correctly but the ones remaining on the line, waiting for interiors, when they stopped manufacturing were scrapped.


I have no idea if all that stuff is original on his plane, but I would not be surprised that it is.

He has a whole bunch of airplanes, and some of them just sit. The last time I was there, I flew a Baron E55 and a Cessna Cardinal (I previously owned a Cardinal and a B55).
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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 18 May 2022, 21:04 
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That's either original interior or he was able to find someone to restore it with copies of the original interior. I had a set of seats and side panels pulled from the last Tiger on the line and it was nearly identical in color and design. The side panel didn't have the pocket.


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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2022, 02:50 
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I've got about 35 hours in Cougars. Very nice planes to fly.

The Cougar was designed as a modular aircraft. They released it with the O-320s to compete in the "coming market" for light-light twins, along with the Seminole and Duchess.

It was designed to be stretched to 6 seats and power up at at least 250 per side, maybe more.

But the sale of the Grumman line to Gulfstream killed that plan.

While I agree there is not much market for it, I love to see someone trying to bring it back.

Also, based on the lack of listings and prices asked, it might be time to start making from AA/GA/AG-5Bs again.


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 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2022, 14:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
I've got about 35 hours in Cougars. Very nice planes to fly.

The Cougar was designed as a modular aircraft. They released it with the O-320s to compete in the "coming market" for light-light twins, along with the Seminole and Duchess.

It was designed to be stretched to 6 seats and power up at at least 250 per side, maybe more.

But the sale of the Grumman line to Gulfstream killed that plan.

While I agree there is not much market for it, I love to see someone trying to bring it back.

Also, based on the lack of listings and prices asked, it might be time to start making from AA/GA/AG-5Bs again.


"might be time to start making the AA/GA/AG-5Bs again"

That would be the Tigers. I didn't know much about the Tigers until a friend got one, and I'm really impressed with them. Good useful load and speed, chromated interior skins, reliable low maintenance 180 HP Lycoming and fixed pitch prop. I think it would make more sense to bring the Tiger back than the Cougar as much as I like the Cougar.

My friend's Tiger is a Gulfstream Tiger, but I can't get him to use "Gulfstream" in his call sign, he uses "Grumman" ;)


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