banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 05:29 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 06 May 2022, 11:57 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/20/08
Posts: 143
Post Likes: +56
Aircraft: Bonanza E33
I’ve had a soft spot for GA planes for years, this guy in Cheyanne is trying to reopen the Cougar line. I wish him luck but, boy, the challenges. I’m copy/pasting his recent email. Try to get on his list & follow. JSJ

Warmest greetings to Cougar fans everywhere.

It’s been a very long time since we’ve communicated with all the nice people who originally responded to our first Barnstormers ad. The fact is that Covid really set us back - both in the Cougar project and my other aviation business. A bit of a double whammy on top of having Covid. I hope this finds you and yours well..

That said, we are working to bring this airplane into the 21st century. As keen aviators, you’ll be aware of all the new powerplant options that are coming along and we’ve followed up on all of them, world-wide. We’ve also spoken with Soloy about a diesel conversion, and I’ve always harbored a not-so-secret desire to put a pair of Allison C-250’s on this airframe. That said, the GA-7 is a fine airplane offering good performance at lower cost with the unleaded approved O-320-D1D. We must also be aware of the extreme hype over EVTOL’s and electric power. Whatever you think about E-power, the simple fact is that not one single version can operate on a day-to-day basis with full certification. (A recent article in Bloomberg Business News pointed out the holes in the Electric mania hype.)

That said, we are rebranding the GA-7 and the company as the NFX – New Flight Experience. You may be aware that NASA plans to utilize America’s 5,050 public use airports for their RAM - Regional Air Mobility Program. The fact is that most American homes are only 16 minutes away from a local public airport. RAM trips of up to 500 miles could be accomplished door to door in 3 hours in the GA-7. With the potential for reduced or net zero emissions powerplants, this opens fast, eco-friendly travel without the worry of expensive parking, intrusive security, and the discomfort of boarding lines – not to mention disease, terrorism, or just plain old bad behavior of fellow travelers. Mature Americans are a growing demographic with the motivation and means to visit loved ones or travel for business, many of whom are encountering reduced mobility, making commercial air travel difficult or discouraging.

Beyond the green revolution, there is the training market. If the aviation press is to be believed, then there is a strong demand for pilot training. Without opening a can of worms about the quality of flight training, let’s just say that a new GA-7 with reduced weight from a glass panel and light weight props/accessories would be a star. What’s more, with jet and SAF operable powerplants, the global market opens right up.

There has been considerable discussion about the tooling etc. for the GA-7. Let me set the record straight. My personal inspection(s) of the tooling reflected a bit of dirt, some wooden molds for fiberglass in disarray, and some steel pipe fittings rusted. That’s straight forward, and the important bits are there and fully usable. We have all the drawings in pdfs from Daher Socata and Grumman and have them perfectly organized and saved to the cloud as well. The velums and hard copies are safely stored. We still need to ship all of this back to the states but have hesitated after a couple of false starts – not wishing to ship and then move again.

We remain committed to making this an American project and not funded by the Chinese. Many of you know that I flew in many Chinese Air Shows and travelled extensively in that country. While I made many friends, I did not make friends with the CCP. For anyone who is not fully aware, there is no such thing as private enterprise in China. Everything is CCP controlled. That I was told repeatedly by state and local officials. You may share in my personal concern about how the CCP and other foreign powers control the majority of US Aircraft production.

We’ve had several investment possibilities fall through thanks to Covid and the current economy, but we remain confident in our product and ask your support – moral, verbal, or otherwise. I’d welcome your comments and questions and look forward to the next steps in launching the GA-7 NFX.

Cordially,

Wayne Mansfield
Cougar Aircraft Corp
wman@flycougar.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 06 May 2022, 13:35 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 06/12/11
Posts: 309
Post Likes: +55
Company: Fly By Knight, Inc.
Location: KHDC, Hammond LA.
Aircraft: H35, B58, PA28, PA34
It is a great training twin, 15gph & really stout landing gear. We operated one for 4100hrs from 2006 to 2021 however I just don't see the demand materializing for them as the airlines don't seem to care about multi hours like they used to.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 06 May 2022, 14:27 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 01/23/13
Posts: 8010
Post Likes: +5705
Company: Kokotele Guitar Works
Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
I'm all for revamping great designs, but even at the height of GA production, the Cougar was a niche product and they only built 115 (according to the Wiki). I don't see the big training market for light twins that he sees, and I don't see that role being filled by a new GA-7 when it can be filled by a Seminole just as easily. With the Seminole you get your choice of new or used, a vast support network, and you can pretty readily assume that the manufacturer will be around in 5 years.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 06 May 2022, 15:10 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 05/13/14
Posts: 8307
Post Likes: +6508
Location: Central Texas (KTPL)
Aircraft: PA-46-310P
What problem does the Cougar solve? What market void does it fill?

None and none.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 06 May 2022, 17:34 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 06/17/14
Posts: 4891
Post Likes: +1859
Location: KJYO
Aircraft: C-182, GA-7
I absolutely love the GA-7 Cougar and find it, and the older brother AA-5B Tiger, to both be wonderful aircraft. However, there just isn't the market for light twins that once existed, particularly with the Cirrus and CAPS.

The pricing will, unfortunately, have to be around $750k to be competitive with Piper and that doesn't leave a lot of room for profit in this day and age. If you add the Rolls Royce M250 (Allison 250) new you are looking at tripling the engine cost to at least $270k per side if not $350K per side and that's before the needed certification work! At that point you are in the millions around $1.2M and starting to bump up against Beech Baron territory.

The cheapest turboprop I know of is the TPS TP100, the turbprop version of the TJ100 that powers the SubSonex jet. That's still $75k and doesn't include the prop. Part of me thinks that if that were viable we would have seen Tecnam pursuing that as an option.

While NFX Aero calls it a compression ignition engine, a proven aviation diesel engine may be helpful, similar to what Diamond has already tested. Then again, what happened to all of the diesel/Jet-A C-172 and C-182 aircraft? The CD-155 with STC is about $75k plus an engine swap at TBO of just under $50k. A factory new IO-320 is around $45-$50k.

My knowledge of twin engine electric aircraft and propulsion in very limited. Years ago I really liked the Pipistrel Sinus and Virus, single-engine of course, electric LSA options the that Pipistrel was pitching at Oshkosh in 2015 and really like what Diamond is currently doing in that space with their singles and twins. Granted, back 5+ years the Airbus eFan looked like a great option as well, particularly the ability to purchase swappable battery packs, and use within a flight school without violating the warranty on the batteries.

It would be wonderful to see more GA-7 Cougars flying in the sky but this may, unfortunately, go the way of the Tiger did in the early 90s. Those held up quite well and there are a few 91-93 models for sale that still look great 30 years later!


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 06 May 2022, 18:44 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/30/09
Posts: 3343
Post Likes: +1948
Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
What are the needs of a student trying to get into career aviation these days for multi-time?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 06 May 2022, 19:09 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/10/16
Posts: 1111
Post Likes: +1257
Location: KLBO
Aircraft: Cessna 172
Username Protected wrote:
I'm all for revamping great designs, but even at the height of GA production, the Cougar was a niche product and they only built 115 (according to the Wiki). I don't see the big training market for light twins that he sees, and I don't see that role being filled by a new GA-7 when it can be filled by a Seminole just as easily. With the Seminole you get your choice of new or used, a vast support network, and you can pretty readily assume that the manufacturer will be around in 5 years.


I think that the lack of Cougar production was more a function of Allen Paulson wanting to focus on jet production and sales, not piston products.

If I remember correctly, the Cougars had corrosion proofing and were likely nicer handling ships than the Seminole. I have very limited Seminole time and none in the Cougar but if I had to bet, the Cougar would be more fun to fly.

Limited production on a fleet sales basis along with special orders for private owners looking for a new light twin versus a high time, high cycle trainer. I think there could be a market if the Company keeps a close watch on costs and overhead to a minimum.

Twin 160s burn less fuel than twin 180s. For an operator like Embry Riddle or Flight Safety, those numbers gotta add up.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 06 May 2022, 20:12 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/20/08
Posts: 143
Post Likes: +56
Aircraft: Bonanza E33
Yep, its long odds. Even Cirrus went broke, twice, and underwent Hail Mary sales just prior to bankrupcy, twice. But I’m rooting for the guy. I’m curious if Rotax has a turbo engine in the 160 hp class? That would check a lot of boxes.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 06 May 2022, 20:12 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/20/08
Posts: 143
Post Likes: +56
Aircraft: Bonanza E33
Yep, its long odds. Even Cirrus went broke, twice, and underwent Hail Mary sales just prior to bankrupcy, twice. But I’m rooting for the guy. I’m curious if Rotax has a turbo engine in the 160 hp class? That would check a lot of boxes.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 06 May 2022, 20:58 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 03/10/11
Posts: 774
Post Likes: +219
Aircraft: B55
Username Protected wrote:
What are the needs of a student trying to get into career aviation these days for multi-time?


25 hours

https://www.endeavorair.com/content/end ... tions.html
https://www.envoyair.com/minimum-qualifications/
https://www.psaairlines.com/first-officers

Piper delivered 15 Seminoles in 2021 and 23 Seminoles + Senecas in 2020. I don't think there's a tremendous demand for new GA-7s.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 06 May 2022, 21:44 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 01/23/13
Posts: 8010
Post Likes: +5705
Company: Kokotele Guitar Works
Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
With used Seminoles and Senecas on the market as well, I think there is zero need for new GA-7s.

Maybe there’s a niche market for buying old airframes and refurbishing them to like-new. If you could run a small shop and churn them out a few at a time, you could serve the small market for a plane like that if you could deliver for, say $500k.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 07 May 2022, 06:28 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 09/15/12
Posts: 790
Post Likes: +128
Location: London, UK
Aircraft: '79 e55 te-1159
The importer in the UK was based at Elstree. We had around 20 go through the airfield. Many were trainers and they were built strong. Still one left on the field which is very low time relatively. I think with 180hp engines it would have been a much better aircraft as it had lots of room for 4 people just not the power.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 07 May 2022, 07:34 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/22/07
Posts: 12813
Post Likes: +13205
Company: Cogswell Cogs, LLC
Location: KPTK (SE Michigan)
Aircraft: C205
IIRC; there is a center section casting(?) that has a 5,000(?) hour life limit. Replacement is non-trivial and expensive.

_________________
Life is a DiY project.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 07 May 2022, 10:19 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 06/12/11
Posts: 309
Post Likes: +55
Company: Fly By Knight, Inc.
Location: KHDC, Hammond LA.
Aircraft: H35, B58, PA28, PA34
Username Protected wrote:
IIRC; there is a center section casting(?) that has a 5,000(?) hour life limit. Replacement is non-trivial and expensive.


That was updated to something like 47,000hours

Instructions for Continued Airworthiness Information with respect to service life limited parts on this model is contained in section "Service Life Limited Components" of the Model GA-7 Service Manual. Service life limits appearing in this manual may not be changed without FAA engineering approval. See GA-7 service manual for inspection requirements Service Life Limited parts must be retired in accordance with the following schedule: Component Part Number Service Life (hours) Inboard Spar Assembly 7W10201-1 47,674


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grumman American Cougar Redux
PostPosted: 07 May 2022, 12:33 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 04/26/13
Posts: 19752
Post Likes: +19425
Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
Username Protected wrote:
What are the needs of a student trying to get into career aviation these days for multi-time?

https://indyairsales.com/current-invent ... he-n1140p/

_________________
My last name rhymes with 'geese'.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.AAI.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.