banner
banner

24 Apr 2024, 10:19 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2022, 10:08 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 06/06/12
Posts: 2290
Post Likes: +2114
Company: FlightRepublic
Location: Bee Cave, TX
Aircraft: DA40, C182
Username Protected wrote:
As to the wing, I don’t know how much he “borrowed” from the P-16 beyond the idea …

My recollection is that the Lear 23 wing is not just a similar design but actually built using the same tooling as the P-16. And the pictures I’ve seen of the P-16 showed a similar looking design including the same tip tanks and landing gear.
BWTHDIK
:shrug:

_________________
Antoni Deighton
contactlink.to/antoni.deighton


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2022, 19:56 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 03/28/17
Posts: 6693
Post Likes: +8033
Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
Username Protected wrote:
I have to wonder whether the FAA’s reluctance to certify the Lear 23 for single pilot operation was in part based on the two crashes of the pre-production single-seat FFA P-16 fighter, on whose wing the Lear 23 was built?
Perhaps if those single seat aircraft had entered service, light jets would be single pilot. On the other hand, if the P-16 had been a success, would Bill Lear have succeeded in buying the wing design for his jet?


I rather think it was because the Lear 23 prototype crashed on takeoff with an accidental spoiler deployment in a simulated engine failure, so the conclusion was if two guys can do that it isn't safe for SP; my spin on the story.

The initial Lear 23's had approach stability problems, overcome with experience in type....if they survived that long. The wing mods that came out later made it a better handling plane, but a pilot would have to have a lot of time in type to fly it SP safely in my opinion.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2022, 06:52 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 04/26/13
Posts: 19953
Post Likes: +19698
Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
Username Protected wrote:
The wing mods that came out later made it a better more stable handling plane, but a pilot would have to have a lot of time in type to fly it SP safely in my opinion.

The new wings improved low speed stability.

No later version that I flew handled as nicely or was as efficient as the original factory wing.

_________________
My last name rhymes with 'geese'.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2022, 12:03 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 03/28/17
Posts: 6693
Post Likes: +8033
Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
Username Protected wrote:
The wing mods that came out later made it a better more stable handling plane, but a pilot would have to have a lot of time in type to fly it SP safely in my opinion.

The new wings improved low speed stability.

No later version that I flew handled as nicely or was as efficient as the original factory wing.


We had the Howard-Raisbeck Mark ll wing on our 24 and it handled much better and was a better short field plane than the original wing on the 23, serial number 11 I did my type training in. We based at a 3,000 foot strip with the 24 with a 98 knot basic ref and the Dee Howard quick deploy hydraulic reversers.

Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2022, 19:35 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/29/09
Posts: 4697
Post Likes: +2404
Company: retired corporate mostly
Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
Quote:
The initial Lear 23's had approach stability problems, overcome with experience in type...
(and leaving the yaw damp on for landing..)

It may have been after the crash at Richmond, but I went to a meeting in FLL in 1980 or so, where they recommended not turning off the yaw damp on final.
I remember one of our instructors teaching me how to stop the yawing on final, with a slight cross control maneuver...

_________________
Jeff

soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.


Last edited on 12 Apr 2022, 17:17, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2022, 07:10 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 04/26/13
Posts: 19953
Post Likes: +19698
Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
The initial Lear 23's had approach stability problems, overcome with experience in type...
(and leaving the yaw damp on for landing..)

It may have been after the crash at Richmond, but I went to a meeting in FLL in 1980 or so, where they recommended not turning off the yaw damp on final.
I remember on of our instructors teaching me how to stop the yawing on final, with a slight cross control maneuver...

Odd. I don’t remember any “approach stability problems” with the original wing, and nobody ever suggested that the yaw damper stay on. There were a couple of occasions where it did, made evident by the plane stubbornly refusing to exit onto the taxiway, but those were cause for embarrassment, and certainly not SOP. That was at FLL in the mid ‘90s.

The little Lear was roll sensitive, but as pointed out, that was a pilot issue that resolved with a little practice. Getting behind the roll on short final might get exciting, but again; not the fault of the plane.

I read with amusement stories of “instability” and having to use the YD by people who fly V tail Bonanzas, and Barons. That’s fine, bring it on, it makes me look like a hero :lol:

The next thing they’ll be saying is that if you turned off the autopilot at 410 it would go out of control. :doh:

_________________
My last name rhymes with 'geese'.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2022, 17:15 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/29/09
Posts: 4697
Post Likes: +2404
Company: retired corporate mostly
Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
Quote:
The next thing they’ll be saying is that if you turned off the autopilot at 410 it would go out of control.


As long as you're not saying it's a piece of cake...

_________________
Jeff

soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2022, 17:20 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/29/09
Posts: 4697
Post Likes: +2404
Company: retired corporate mostly
Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
Quote:
The initial Lear 23's had approach stability problems, overcome with experience in type....if they survived that long.


I often wondered what it would be like to come out of a Howard 350, or lodestar.. even a corporate Convair and into a (tiny) jet with no simulator training. Must have been a shock.

_________________
Jeff

soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2022, 17:26 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 04/26/13
Posts: 19953
Post Likes: +19698
Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
The initial Lear 23's had approach stability problems, overcome with experience in type....if they survived that long.


I often wondered what it would be like to come out of a Howard 350, or lodestar.. even a corporate Convair and into a (tiny) jet with no simulator training. Must have been a shock.

This is most likely what caused a great many of the new designs from that era to earn an undeserved reputation. Cessna 310s were said to be a "handful" and you had to be careful flying them, lest they bite. Bonanzas got their reputation at the same time. Lear jets, and so on. They were all modern, high performance, all metal airplanes at the end of the rag and dope era. There were a lot of people who could afford them, but nobody had experience in anything like them. Of course it's not the pilot who gets the blame. The machine must be trying to kill you.

_________________
My last name rhymes with 'geese'.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2022, 17:27 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 04/26/13
Posts: 19953
Post Likes: +19698
Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
The next thing they’ll be saying is that if you turned off the autopilot at 410 it would go out of control.


As long as you're not saying it's a piece of cake...

No, after about an hour it's freaking exhausting.

_________________
My last name rhymes with 'geese'.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2022, 14:26 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/01/08
Posts: 2630
Post Likes: +648
https://www.avweb.com/insider/requiem-f ... -enhancer/


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2022, 15:47 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 03/28/17
Posts: 6693
Post Likes: +8033
Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
Username Protected wrote:
https://www.avweb.com/insider/requiem-for-aviations-hottest-image-enhancer/


I was expecting the article to be a little more informative about Lear jets but the author was all over the map on subject matter, but I did learn something about the interaction of Jet-A and polyester leisure suits. ;)


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 27 Feb 2023, 15:51 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 04/26/13
Posts: 19953
Post Likes: +19698
Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
And then there's this:

First Customer Lear Jet To Be Restored

"The first Lear Jet to be delivered will be rebuilt and restored by the Classic Lear Jet Foundation, which will hold an event on Tuesday at Wichita Dwight D. Eisenhower National Airport in Wichita, Kan., to celebrate the start of the undertaking."

Be still my heart.

_________________
My last name rhymes with 'geese'.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2023, 22:56 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 06/16/09
Posts: 78
Post Likes: +41
Location: Wichita
Aircraft: C90B, C90A, 940, A*
https://www.kwch.com/2023/03/01/watch-h ... s-wichita/

Good bunch of guys doing this for all the right reasons. And a very capable knowledgeable group.

Doc, who is 400yards down the field, has set a nice standard on a very successful and popular flying museum destination.

It is worth a contribution to a good cause. They'll send you a neat t-shirt


Top

 Post subject: Re: Final Learjet.
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2023, 00:11 
Offline



 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 6787
Post Likes: +7339
Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
The Learjet didn’t die because it required two pilots, any aircraft of equal capability is likely flown with two pilots. Sure, the 20 and 30 series would have been more competitive with Citations back in the day had they been single pilot, but the Lear 75 is in a different class. The only SP jets that compare are the Phenom 300 and PC-24, both typically flown with two pilots.

The Learjet brand died because Bombardier salesmen weren’t good at selling it, and by the time the factory realized their mistake and hired Lear guys to sell it, it was too late.

Ironically if they’d kept building it, current demand would have saved it.

_________________
It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.daytona.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.puremedical-85x200.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.camguard.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.AAI.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.