23 Apr 2024, 20:07 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 07 Apr 2022, 10:08 |
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Joined: 06/06/12 Posts: 2290 Post Likes: +2114 Company: FlightRepublic Location: Bee Cave, TX
Aircraft: DA40, C182
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Username Protected wrote: As to the wing, I don’t know how much he “borrowed” from the P-16 beyond the idea … My recollection is that the Lear 23 wing is not just a similar design but actually built using the same tooling as the P-16. And the pictures I’ve seen of the P-16 showed a similar looking design including the same tip tanks and landing gear. BWTHDIK
_________________ Antoni Deighton contactlink.to/antoni.deighton
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 10 Apr 2022, 19:56 |
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Joined: 03/28/17 Posts: 6692 Post Likes: +8031 Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote: I have to wonder whether the FAA’s reluctance to certify the Lear 23 for single pilot operation was in part based on the two crashes of the pre-production single-seat FFA P-16 fighter, on whose wing the Lear 23 was built? Perhaps if those single seat aircraft had entered service, light jets would be single pilot. On the other hand, if the P-16 had been a success, would Bill Lear have succeeded in buying the wing design for his jet? I rather think it was because the Lear 23 prototype crashed on takeoff with an accidental spoiler deployment in a simulated engine failure, so the conclusion was if two guys can do that it isn't safe for SP; my spin on the story. The initial Lear 23's had approach stability problems, overcome with experience in type....if they survived that long. The wing mods that came out later made it a better handling plane, but a pilot would have to have a lot of time in type to fly it SP safely in my opinion.
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 11 Apr 2022, 06:52 |
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Joined: 04/26/13 Posts: 19949 Post Likes: +19695 Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
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Username Protected wrote: The wing mods that came out later made it a better more stable handling plane, but a pilot would have to have a lot of time in type to fly it SP safely in my opinion. The new wings improved low speed stability. No later version that I flew handled as nicely or was as efficient as the original factory wing.
_________________ My last name rhymes with 'geese'.
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 11 Apr 2022, 12:03 |
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Joined: 03/28/17 Posts: 6692 Post Likes: +8031 Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote: The wing mods that came out later made it a better more stable handling plane, but a pilot would have to have a lot of time in type to fly it SP safely in my opinion. The new wings improved low speed stability. No later version that I flew handled as nicely or was as efficient as the original factory wing.
We had the Howard-Raisbeck Mark ll wing on our 24 and it handled much better and was a better short field plane than the original wing on the 23, serial number 11 I did my type training in. We based at a 3,000 foot strip with the 24 with a 98 knot basic ref and the Dee Howard quick deploy hydraulic reversers.
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 11 Apr 2022, 19:35 |
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Joined: 01/29/09 Posts: 4697 Post Likes: +2404 Company: retired corporate mostly Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
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Quote: The initial Lear 23's had approach stability problems, overcome with experience in type... (and leaving the yaw damp on for landing..) It may have been after the crash at Richmond, but I went to a meeting in FLL in 1980 or so, where they recommended not turning off the yaw damp on final. I remember one of our instructors teaching me how to stop the yawing on final, with a slight cross control maneuver...
_________________ Jeff
soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.
Last edited on 12 Apr 2022, 17:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 12 Apr 2022, 07:10 |
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Joined: 04/26/13 Posts: 19949 Post Likes: +19695 Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
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Username Protected wrote: Quote: The initial Lear 23's had approach stability problems, overcome with experience in type... (and leaving the yaw damp on for landing..) It may have been after the crash at Richmond, but I went to a meeting in FLL in 1980 or so, where they recommended not turning off the yaw damp on final. I remember on of our instructors teaching me how to stop the yawing on final, with a slight cross control maneuver... Odd. I don’t remember any “approach stability problems” with the original wing, and nobody ever suggested that the yaw damper stay on. There were a couple of occasions where it did, made evident by the plane stubbornly refusing to exit onto the taxiway, but those were cause for embarrassment, and certainly not SOP. That was at FLL in the mid ‘90s. The little Lear was roll sensitive, but as pointed out, that was a pilot issue that resolved with a little practice. Getting behind the roll on short final might get exciting, but again; not the fault of the plane. I read with amusement stories of “instability” and having to use the YD by people who fly V tail Bonanzas, and Barons. That’s fine, bring it on, it makes me look like a hero The next thing they’ll be saying is that if you turned off the autopilot at 410 it would go out of control.
_________________ My last name rhymes with 'geese'.
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 12 Apr 2022, 17:15 |
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Joined: 01/29/09 Posts: 4697 Post Likes: +2404 Company: retired corporate mostly Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
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Quote: The next thing they’ll be saying is that if you turned off the autopilot at 410 it would go out of control. As long as you're not saying it's a piece of cake...
_________________ Jeff
soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 12 Apr 2022, 17:20 |
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Joined: 01/29/09 Posts: 4697 Post Likes: +2404 Company: retired corporate mostly Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
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Quote: The initial Lear 23's had approach stability problems, overcome with experience in type....if they survived that long. I often wondered what it would be like to come out of a Howard 350, or lodestar.. even a corporate Convair and into a (tiny) jet with no simulator training. Must have been a shock.
_________________ Jeff
soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 12 Apr 2022, 17:26 |
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Joined: 04/26/13 Posts: 19949 Post Likes: +19695 Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
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Username Protected wrote: Quote: The initial Lear 23's had approach stability problems, overcome with experience in type....if they survived that long. I often wondered what it would be like to come out of a Howard 350, or lodestar.. even a corporate Convair and into a (tiny) jet with no simulator training. Must have been a shock. This is most likely what caused a great many of the new designs from that era to earn an undeserved reputation. Cessna 310s were said to be a "handful" and you had to be careful flying them, lest they bite. Bonanzas got their reputation at the same time. Lear jets, and so on. They were all modern, high performance, all metal airplanes at the end of the rag and dope era. There were a lot of people who could afford them, but nobody had experience in anything like them. Of course it's not the pilot who gets the blame. The machine must be trying to kill you.
_________________ My last name rhymes with 'geese'.
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 12 Apr 2022, 17:27 |
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Joined: 04/26/13 Posts: 19949 Post Likes: +19695 Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
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Username Protected wrote: Quote: The next thing they’ll be saying is that if you turned off the autopilot at 410 it would go out of control. As long as you're not saying it's a piece of cake... No, after about an hour it's freaking exhausting.
_________________ My last name rhymes with 'geese'.
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 25 Apr 2022, 15:47 |
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Joined: 03/28/17 Posts: 6692 Post Likes: +8031 Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote: https://www.avweb.com/insider/requiem-for-aviations-hottest-image-enhancer/ I was expecting the article to be a little more informative about Lear jets but the author was all over the map on subject matter, but I did learn something about the interaction of Jet-A and polyester leisure suits.
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 27 Feb 2023, 15:51 |
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Joined: 04/26/13 Posts: 19949 Post Likes: +19695 Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
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And then there's this: First Customer Lear Jet To Be Restored"The first Lear Jet to be delivered will be rebuilt and restored by the Classic Lear Jet Foundation, which will hold an event on Tuesday at Wichita Dwight D. Eisenhower National Airport in Wichita, Kan., to celebrate the start of the undertaking." Be still my heart.
_________________ My last name rhymes with 'geese'.
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 01 Mar 2023, 22:56 |
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Joined: 06/16/09 Posts: 78 Post Likes: +41 Location: Wichita
Aircraft: C90B, C90A, 940, A*
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https://www.kwch.com/2023/03/01/watch-h ... s-wichita/Good bunch of guys doing this for all the right reasons. And a very capable knowledgeable group. Doc, who is 400yards down the field, has set a nice standard on a very successful and popular flying museum destination. It is worth a contribution to a good cause. They'll send you a neat t-shirt
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Post subject: Re: Final Learjet. Posted: 02 Mar 2023, 00:11 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6787 Post Likes: +7338 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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The Learjet didn’t die because it required two pilots, any aircraft of equal capability is likely flown with two pilots. Sure, the 20 and 30 series would have been more competitive with Citations back in the day had they been single pilot, but the Lear 75 is in a different class. The only SP jets that compare are the Phenom 300 and PC-24, both typically flown with two pilots.
The Learjet brand died because Bombardier salesmen weren’t good at selling it, and by the time the factory realized their mistake and hired Lear guys to sell it, it was too late.
Ironically if they’d kept building it, current demand would have saved it.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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