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23 Apr 2024, 16:52 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Blue Origin
PostPosted: 03 Apr 2022, 16:19 
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There used to be a tremendous sense of National Pride in regard to our Space Program. It was an amazing unifier within our Country. NASA meant so much to every single American and every time there was a launch it captured the heart, spirit and imagination of absolutely everyone. We have lost all of that. As Eric put it and absolutely right on the money imo,”marketing gimmick” and “corporate pep rallies” is exactly what our Space Program has devolved into. It doesn’t represent the United States of America. It doesn’t stand for what we as a Nation value. It looks like Weapons Grade Propaganda that North Korea would produce for Kim Jong Un. It’s pathetic. It’s UN-American and most of all, not representative of who we are as a Nation.

I don’t have words for how stupid this makes us look. Privatizing the Space Program for the personal benefit of people like Jeff Bezos, Richard Branson and Elon Musk is a direct slap in the face to the service of Alan Shepard, John Glenn, Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, Michael Collins and the entirety of our Nation’s amazing Astronauts.

I think there are two separate programs here and they’re being conflated.

There is the government funded National manned space flight program, which lately has shown itself to be an embarrassment, and then there are the commercial newcomers.

With respect to the latter I think that two of them, SpaceX and Sierra Space are especially worthy of pride. Both are innovating at a tremendous pace, inventing and pushing the boundaries of what we are capable of doing. I love that they are American companies.

On the other side is the SLS, which is a perfect example of politics and cronyism teaming up to produce a ridiculously overpriced product, but were it not for the contrast that SpaceX provides we would assume that’s what it costs to go to space and be split over proudly hailing it as our greatest space achievement and decrying it as a waste of money that would be better thrown at social programs. Given the contrast, the latter argument grows in strength.

Then there’s the Starliner program, which suffers from much of the same bureaucracy and cronyism, and billions later has yet to produce a flightworthy crewed vehicle.

Finally there’s Blue Origin, who were it not for their contract with ULA could be shrugged off as irrelevant, but their inability to provide the BE-4 engines for Vulcan Centaur has put that program in the position where they are about to lose their heavy launch capability for want of engines. That’s freaking embarrassing, but it’s not NASA.

The space programs of the 1960s were remarkable in their focus and commitment, but they were also much more expensive. The Apollo program cost upwards of $250 billion inflation adjusted. Artemis, as wasteful as it is, has cost a little over $90 billion. At their estimated $4B per rocket there’s a lot of room before we reach Apollo’s cost. We do not have the desire to fund at the level of Apollo. In fact we didn’t want to maintain that rate for Apollo, cancelling the last three missions. This is a perfect time for private enterprise to step in. We don’t need the government to manage the R&D any longer, and while government funding is still involved, it is at a much lower cost. Eventually I expect that to all but disappear.

Meanwhile NASA can focus on uncrewed missions, like probes and telescopes. Things that really expand our knowledge and push the limits of our ability, but don’t have the return that a corporation needs to operate. I look at the astonishing complexity of the Curiosity and Perseverance rover’s EDL phase that worked perfectly both times and glow with pride. That is NASA at its best, and I think that’s where they should stay. I felt the same ‘jump to your feet and cheer’ pride when Falcon 9 first landed successfully. That is an accomplishment for us all.

I see no need to be disappointed in our country’s space programs, but we have to expand our definition of what that means. We are doing great things both inside and outside of NASA, and we have our struggles both inside and outside of NASA. Overall I am far more optimistic about our future in space than I’ve been since the Apollo program.

The carnival rides are irrelevant and should not be confused with the real space programs that are doing great things.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Origin
PostPosted: 03 Apr 2022, 19:47 
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Joined: 01/07/14
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Username Protected wrote:
There used to be a tremendous sense of National Pride in regard to our Space Program. It was an amazing unifier within our Country. NASA meant so much to every single American and every time there was a launch it captured the heart, spirit and imagination of absolutely everyone. We have lost all of that. As Eric put it and absolutely right on the money imo,”marketing gimmick” and “corporate pep rallies” is exactly what our Space Program has devolved into. It doesn’t represent the United States of America. It doesn’t stand for what we as a Nation value. It looks like Weapons Grade Propaganda that North Korea would produce for Kim Jong Un. It’s pathetic. It’s UN-American and most of all, not representative of who we are as a Nation.

I don’t have words for how stupid this makes us look. Privatizing the Space Program for the personal benefit of people like Jeff Bezos, Richard Branson and Elon Musk is a direct slap in the face to the service of Alan Shepard, John Glenn, Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, Michael Collins and the entirety of our Nation’s amazing Astronauts.

I think there are two separate programs here and they’re being conflated.

There is the government funded National manned space flight program, which lately has shown itself to be an embarrassment, and then there are the commercial newcomers.

With respect to the latter I think that two of them, SpaceX and Sierra Space are especially worthy of pride. Both are innovating at a tremendous pace, inventing and pushing the boundaries of what we are capable of doing. I love that they are American companies.

On the other side is the SLS, which is a perfect example of politics and cronyism teaming up to produce a ridiculously overpriced product, but were it not for the contrast that SpaceX provides we would assume that’s what it costs to go to space and be split over proudly hailing it as our greatest space achievement and decrying it as a waste of money that would be better thrown at social programs. Given the contrast, the latter argument grows in strength.

Then there’s the Starliner program, which suffers from much of the same bureaucracy and cronyism, and billions later has yet to produce a flightworthy crewed vehicle.

Finally there’s Blue Origin, who were it not for their contract with ULA could be shrugged off as irrelevant, but their inability to provide the BE-4 engines for Vulcan Centaur has put that program in the position where they are about to lose their heavy launch capability for want of engines. That’s freaking embarrassing, but it’s not NASA.

The space programs of the 1960s were remarkable in their focus and commitment, but they were also much more expensive. The Apollo program cost upwards of $250 billion inflation adjusted. Artemis, as wasteful as it is, has cost a little over $90 billion. At their estimated $4B per rocket there’s a lot of room before we reach Apollo’s cost. We do not have the desire to fund at the level of Apollo. In fact we didn’t want to maintain that rate for Apollo, cancelling the last three missions. This is a perfect time for private enterprise to step in. We don’t need the government to manage the R&D any longer, and while government funding is still involved, it is at a much lower cost. Eventually I expect that to all but disappear.

Meanwhile NASA can focus on uncrewed missions, like probes and telescopes. Things that really expand our knowledge and push the limits of our ability, but don’t have the return that a corporation needs to operate. I look at the astonishing complexity of the Curiosity and Perseverance rover’s EDL phase that worked perfectly both times and glow with pride. That is NASA at its best, and I think that’s where they should stay. I felt the same ‘jump to your feet and cheer’ pride when Falcon 9 first landed successfully. That is an accomplishment for us all.

I see no need to be disappointed in our country’s space programs, but we have to expand our definition of what that means. We are doing great things both inside and outside of NASA, and we have our struggles both inside and outside of NASA. Overall I am far more optimistic about our future in space than I’ve been since the Apollo program.

The carnival rides are irrelevant and should not be confused with the real space programs that are doing great things.


Very well put John and I can get on board with that. It’s always been a collaboration for sure between companies and NASA to accomplish mission objectives. And I certainly see the benefits of Private Companies being involved and spearheading projects. I just don’t want to see the Pride, Unity as a nation and sense of All Americans being a part of the story and success go away. But your points are very well received and I appreciate your knowledge and expertise here.

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