banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 09:05 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2022, 18:21 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 01/24/10
Posts: 6730
Post Likes: +4406
Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
John , I owned a Ram VII 340A for 900 hours, I currently own a 421C that I have flown 2400 hours and ran two sets of engines out to TBO.

I own 300 hangars in CA and have lots of tenants with 421C’s, 425’s , king Airs, Jets and other Turbines. I consult with them on a regular basis.

I have been actively flying for 60 years and had a airplane sales company in the past. I have a reasonable understanding of the aircraft market

I wish you well.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2022, 18:37 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/05/16
Posts: 3097
Post Likes: +2222
Company: Tack Mobile
Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
Username Protected wrote:
John , I owned a Ram VII 340A for 900 hours, I currently own a 421C that I have flown 2400 hours and ran two sets of engines out to TBO.

I own 300 hangars in CA and have lots of tenants with 421C’s, 425’s , king Airs, Jets and other Turbines. I consult with them on a regular basis.

I have been actively flying for 60 years and had a airplane sales company in the past. I have a reasonable understanding of the aircraft market

I wish you well.


I did not mean to cast aspersions, I am sorry if it came across that way. I am sure you know these piston twins very well and probably better than I do. My contribution is mostly just that the 425 info as you posted is not what I know as we type in March 2022, as I just went through this process and am in a position to know a bit of detail about what's going on now.

Back to the original question, I think a 414A is a good value but it will not be as quiet as a 421C. With RAM engines I don't think a 414A is particularly underpowered.

To sum up: a 421C is better and slightly more expensive than a 414A. A 425 is better and slightly more expensive than a 421C.

That last sentence is not well understood.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2022, 20:49 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/05/09
Posts: 286
Post Likes: +130
Location: Portland, Oregon
Aircraft: MU-2F
F model MU2. 65-70gph block to block. 260KTAS in the low 20s. 1st 100/200 hr $15K and this included one new battery and new nose tires. 2nd 100/200 hr was $8K including two new main gear tires and the prop pitch control AD. After the initial avionics updates the plane has spent zero time in the shop except for inspections. Insurance $10K. Initial training was $6K, recurrent was $3K and took a day. I looked at 421Cs and Aerostars, I have been very happy with the MU2 as it is faster and climbs better than either piston twin with much more robust construction and systems. There are 3 factory service centers and other places to get service as well. Mitsubishi is the owner of the service center in Tulsa. The few parts I have needed have been available. Very supportive owner group. I essentially traded even for the P210 I used to own. The F model MU2 is the most cost effective turbine twin you can own and I can't see flying and pressurized piston twin for significantly less dollars/mile unless it is a P337. As Mike C said, the pressurized piston twin goes 0 KTAS in the shop and they will spend more time there than an MU2. Do yourself a favor, try to find the best MU2 you can afford.

Jeff Axel
N228WP


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2022, 09:07 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 5547
Post Likes: +2503
Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Take the exact same fuselage, spend tons of money at Ram, ram (pun intended) as much air as possible down its throat, run it as hot as possible, as noisy as possible, throw a $70k+ spar AD on it and you'll have a 414A with the same capabilities as a 421C running 100 degrees CHT cooler, quieter, and no expensive engine modification or spar AD...


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2022, 09:14 
Online


 Profile




Joined: 11/03/08
Posts: 14525
Post Likes: +22857
Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
Aircraft: A33
with either one, danger will robinson, danger

for years I essentially shared my travel air with a friend who had a 414. If he needed to go someplace shortish or grass surface he's take my travel air. If I had a trip with any potential icing or needing to go higher I'd take his 414. Between the two of us it worked out great.

but, after a few rides in the 414 my wife decided that size and pressurization was the minimum acceptable mode of transportation. I could never get her into the travel air much after that. Problem is i have a travel air / bonanza size wallet.

So, be very careful about exposing your other half to one of these planes unless you are sure it's what you want to invest in.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2022, 10:06 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/21/14
Posts: 280
Post Likes: +86
Location: KPDK
Aircraft: C421B MU2-40 Solitai
Here is my .02. I have owned both a 414 and 421. If you haul a load of stuff, the 421 is the best Piston aircraft around. I am not a fan of RAM. In my experience, my Ram 414 ate cylinders. If you don't mind oil on your gear, then you may not be replacing cylinders as much as I did.
The 421 is quiet and super comfortable. In my experience the GTSIO engine is a great engine. Like all 50 year old airplanes, both will find themselves in the shop regularly with the same non-engine issues.

On a final note, I have found that other than the required training cost (your insurance will require annual training in a 414 or 421), an MU-2 is more reliable and the cost of ownership difference is minimal. Not to mention you're flying faster and higher.

_________________
Sandy


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2022, 11:39 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4006
Post Likes: +4410
Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Username Protected wrote:
F model MU2. .... I can't see flying and pressurized piston twin for significantly less dollars/mile unless it is a P337.

I believe that the MU-2F costs LESS to operate than a P337.

I own a T337, and know several other owners. A P337 is NOT a cheap way to go (aside from the initial acquisition.)

I don't think a piston twin exists that beats an MU-2F on dollars per mile for operating costs.

_________________
Be Nice


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2022, 12:22 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/05/09
Posts: 286
Post Likes: +130
Location: Portland, Oregon
Aircraft: MU-2F
Username Protected wrote:
F model MU2. .... I can't see flying and pressurized piston twin for significantly less dollars/mile unless it is a P337.

I believe that the MU-2F costs LESS to operate than a P337.

I own a T337, and know several other owners. A P337 is NOT a cheap way to go (aside from the initial acquisition.)

I don't think a piston twin exists that beats an MU-2F on dollars per mile for operating costs.


Jim, that may be true today, my P337 ownership was 12 years ago. Liked the plane, but after the initial issues it had more stuff go wrong in 3 years than the MU2 has had in 1 3/4 years. The nice thing about the P337 was it burned less fuel than any other piston twin, but carried less and was slower and didn't climb very well if you were watching CHTs. I understand that parts are getting harder to find on 337s too. I sold mine and went back to a P210 which we owned for the 10 years before we bought the MU2. My wife was never totally comfortable in any of my other planes but she actually likes the MU2. The higher pressurization differential and the ability to make trips nonstop more often and in less time are appreciated by both of us.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2022, 12:41 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/02/19
Posts: 65
Post Likes: +31
Ok, I get the economics of the MU-2 compared to piston twins and even other entry level turboprops. What about comfort though? I am told they are quite loud. Is this only on the ground?

Is the cabin quiet enough when airborne for passengers to speak and hear each other without headsets? What about the potty? Is it similar to the potty on the 421C?

As you can see, I need to find a solution that works for people who are not the pilot/owner. My wife, my clients, and my staff are the ones that matter here. If the 421C is quieter and more comfortable, then I'll give up the block time and short-field advantages the MU-2 offers. Gotta be more limo than farm tractor.

Finally, with all this anti-GA, and "not in my backyard" airport stuff, I wonder if buzzing around in an MU-2 is putting fuel on the fire. Why is it that the two TPs I hear the most fanatical affection for are also the ones connected to noise complaints, i.e., MU-2 and Piaggio Avanti? :sad:

Vic.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2022, 13:00 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 05/31/13
Posts: 1227
Post Likes: +598
Company: Docking Drawer
Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
I know of a non blackhawk 425 with good P&I and a garmin panel, 7000 hours, and mid time engines that sold a few months ago for somewhere around $850k. A good friend of mine recently entertained an offer for his 7000 hr mid time blackhawk 425 with a full garmin panel including autopilot for $1.2M. That being said, you will have to pry a 425 out of the owners hands right now. Obviously that could change in the next few months but right now it seems like the high water mark for a 425 is about $900/$1.2 for a well equipped, mid time 425/blackhawk 425.

_________________
ATP, CFI-I, MEI
http://www.dockingdrawer.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2022, 13:24 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/25/12
Posts: 3711
Post Likes: +3661
Location: KRHV San Jose, CA
Aircraft: A36, R44, C525
I have a 1973 421B that I have had since 1999 that I have in annual that I want to sell. It is not being listed now. Everything works or is being fixed right now. A nice 421. I have to many planes now and would like to move it quickly if possible if your interested. I don't have any pro pics ready yet but as it has been in annual. But I have some just taken at times. Its a pretty nice 421B. Anything big has been done and replaced.

PM me if you want to talk more about it.

_________________
Rocky Hill

Altitude is Everything.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2022, 14:52 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/22/08
Posts: 2913
Post Likes: +921
Company: USAF Propulsion Laboratory
Location: Dayton, OH
Aircraft: PA24, AEST 680, 421
Username Protected wrote:
Ok, I get the economics of the MU-2 compared to piston twins and even other entry level turboprops. What about comfort though? I am told they are quite loud. Is this only on the ground?

Is the cabin quiet enough when airborne for passengers to speak and hear each other without headsets? What about the potty? Is it similar to the potty on the 421C?

As you can see, I need to find a solution that works for people who are not the pilot/owner. My wife, my clients, and my staff are the ones that matter here. If the 421C is quieter and more comfortable, then I'll give up the block time and short-field advantages the MU-2 offers. Gotta be more limo than farm tractor.

Finally, with all this anti-GA, and "not in my backyard" airport stuff, I wonder if buzzing around in an MU-2 is putting fuel on the fire. Why is it that the two TPs I hear the most fanatical affection for are also the ones connected to noise complaints, i.e., MU-2 and Piaggio Avanti? :sad:

Vic.

MU-2 is quite loud on the ground. Not too bad inside, the 421 is quiet enough to speak without headsets. No potty in the short body MU-2. Both aircraft are comfortable travelling machines. The 421 is the Cadillac of piston twins for comfort.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2022, 15:38 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/05/09
Posts: 286
Post Likes: +130
Location: Portland, Oregon
Aircraft: MU-2F
Username Protected wrote:
Ok, I get the economics of the MU-2 compared to piston twins and even other entry level turboprops. What about comfort though? I am told they are quite loud. Is this only on the ground?

Is the cabin quiet enough when airborne for passengers to speak and hear each other without headsets? What about the potty? Is it similar to the potty on the 421C?

As you can see, I need to find a solution that works for people who are not the pilot/owner. My wife, my clients, and my staff are the ones that matter here. If the 421C is quieter and more comfortable, then I'll give up the block time and short-field advantages the MU-2 offers. Gotta be more limo than farm tractor.

Finally, with all this anti-GA, and "not in my backyard" airport stuff, I wonder if buzzing around in an MU-2 is putting fuel on the fire. Why is it that the two TPs I hear the most fanatical affection for are also the ones connected to noise complaints, i.e., MU-2 and Piaggio Avanti? :sad:

Vic.

MU-2 is quite loud on the ground. Not too bad inside, the 421 is quiet enough to speak without headsets. No potty in the short body MU-2. Both aircraft are comfortable travelling machines. The 421 is the Cadillac of piston twins for comfort.


One of the bigger surprises I had the first time I rode in an MU2 was the interior noise level, it was much quieter than I expected. That said, everyone wears headsets in my plane. You can get short body MU2s with a potty seat, the one on Controller now has one I believe. The long bodies have an enclosed potty in the back. If that is the biggest concern, get a Merlin, fully enclosed lav with a sink!

Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2022, 16:42 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/25/16
Posts: 1819
Post Likes: +1382
Location: 2IS
Aircraft: C501
Username Protected wrote:
...I have too many planes...

Rocky this is the one sentence that I MUST say in this lifetime.


Last edited on 08 Mar 2022, 16:56, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421c or 414AW for comfort
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2022, 16:43 
Online


 Profile




Joined: 11/03/08
Posts: 14525
Post Likes: +22857
Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
Aircraft: A33
Username Protected wrote:
...I have to many planes...

Rocky this is the one sentence that I MUST say in this lifetime.

I can say the same thing - the difference is that presumably, Rocky's planes are able to fly

Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.midwest2.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.tat-85x100.png.
.AAI.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.