banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 19:29 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2022, 08:25 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/08/13
Posts: 437
Post Likes: +228
Company: Citation Jet Exchange
Location: St. Louis
Aircraft: 58P C510 C525 Excel
I briefly flew 1 of the 16 g1000 CJs and it was very enjoyable. Laid out nice. We had to carry nearly 200lbs of ballast up front if flown single pilot though.

_________________
The Citation Jet Exchange
www.CitationJetX.com
CJs, Mustangs, Excels


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2022, 10:45 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 05/30/17
Posts: 198
Post Likes: +159
If only Textron/Garmin were willing to sell NXi upgrades for those aircraft … I’ve been in one too and they are very nice. On the plus side, you can put a whole new Garmin TXi/GTN panel in the original CJs including the autopilot. The only Garmin thing you can’t put in is an engine information system or annunciator panel. I think a well-maintained CJ is a very good option, even if the prices on them have gone up a lot like every other jet these days….


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2022, 12:44 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 04/16/10
Posts: 2031
Post Likes: +886
Location: Wisconsin
Aircraft: CJ4, AmphibBeaver
The G1000 STC is still available, but it is "frozen in time" meaning it will not likely ever get updated. The number of units it too small to warrant the brain damage by Garmin and Cessna to update it. I enjoyed the G1000 in the airplane and even though stuck in time, it works wonderfully, and GFC700 AP with Vnav works perfectly.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 01 Oct 2022, 23:25 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/19/09
Posts: 329
Post Likes: +269
Company: Premier Bone and Joint
Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
Pulling up an old post here...
I have posted before about our medical practice (4 King Air C90A's and an MU-2) and our interest in potentially looking at a different aircraft type. With many doctors, 3 corporate pilots, and lots of administrators/lawyers and accountants, it took a very long time to decide on a plan. Eclipse brought a jet by for us to evaluate but it was way too small and didn't have hot/high performance (our home airport is at 7300 MSL). Textron brought their new M2 for some test flights which was very nice, but no thrust attenuators and a $6M price tag, also no availability until 2024.
We have decided to sell one Blackhawk King Air and purchase a used Citation.
We are about to go through a pre-buy on a '93 525 with Tamarack winglets, G1000 cockpit and TAP Blue program.
I have a couple questions for those of you who have operated these planes:
1) The plane is on an engine program, but the listing seems odd to me coming from piston planes and turboprops; it says that both Williams engines are 6656 Total time since new with a 5000 hr TBO. That doesn't really make sense to me unless Citations on an engine program have engines overhauled on condition rather than on a time schedule. Or perhaps it means the engines were overhauled at 5000 hours? I'm thinking no or it would say so (I haven't been able to look at the logs yet).
2) Do new owners generally just "step into" the hourly payments on a TAP Blue program or is there ever a "transition fee" to continue the program under new ownership?
3) When the aircraft is delivered for pre-buy inspection, is there any specific element you would recommend checking that some of these "older" used jets may have issues with? I'm thinking to check the air conditioning (presumably freon based?) on the ramp, then climbing to altitude looking for engine temp symmetry, checking cabin pressure and TAS vs. book numbers. Anything else to check in flight?
4) For those of you flying with the Tamarack active winglets, do they create any unusual burden when the plane sits on a ramp in the snow. I would assume that they are about like ailerons with respect to contamination risk issues, but thought I'd check because we get a lot of snow/ice and some airports don't have much for hangars/de-ice.
Thanks

_________________
Thomas


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2022, 00:04 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23613
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
We are about to go through a pre-buy on a '93 525 with Tamarack winglets, G1000 cockpit and TAP Blue program.

The winglets will increase the ride discomfort in turbulence since they reduce wing loading.

They don't have the magical fuel reductions they claim. 5% would be possible, but the numbers they claim are i snake oil territory.

Given your weather, you would have been better off with a legacy airplane equipped with TRs.

Quote:
1) The plane is on an engine program, but the listing seems odd to me coming from piston planes and turboprops; it says that both Williams engines are 6656 Total time since new with a 5000 hr TBO. That doesn't really make sense to me unless Citations on an engine program have engines overhauled on condition rather than on a time schedule. Or perhaps it means the engines were overhauled at 5000 hours? I'm thinking no or it would say so (I haven't been able to look at the logs yet).

I would expect the engines were OH at about 5000 hours. This should be evident in the logs.

You need to get the maintenance status report. That will show the compliance times for al the parts and the inspection status. The engine OH and HSI (in Williams speak, MPI 3 and MPI 4) will be shown.

Quote:
2) Do new owners generally just "step into" the hourly payments on a TAP Blue program or is there ever a "transition fee" to continue the program under new ownership?

There are booby traps here to be aware of.

You should send the engine serial numbers to Williams and get a status check to make sure the program the owners have doesn't have special conditions. Some of them have back loaded payments, or other terms which makes the next buyer more heavily burdened.

It doesn't matter what anyone tells you, whatever Williams says is the way it is. Get that in writing. Williams is not consistent customer to customer, either.

You will get a new program, you don't inherit the current owner's program. Your rate will likely go up. You will have to decide on the plan you want. There are two plans (at least there was a year ago), standard and low use. Standard is 150 hours minimum per year. Low use is pay for 135 hours up front, you get 150 hours, and then any hour over 150 is at 135% base rate. The effective rate is thus:
Attachment:
williams-analysis-1.png

Not a lot different. The cross over is 193 hours. The prices shown above are out of date, there has been substantial increases in recent years. Expect the base rate to be over $400/hour for the program for a pair of engines.

For Williams, there is no viable option to be off program. They are the only place you can get HSI/OH and they charge more then the program payments to do that off program. They told me this explicitly.

Also, there may be parts and other programs on the plane which have terms that may affect you. Should check that out. Pro Parts is common on 525 series.

Quote:
3) When the aircraft is delivered for pre-buy inspection, is there any specific element you would recommend checking that some of these "older" used jets may have issues with? I'm thinking to check the air conditioning (presumably freon based?) on the ramp, then climbing to altitude looking for engine temp symmetry, checking cabin pressure and TAS vs. book numbers. Anything else to check in flight?

The maintenance status report will give you a good insight on the looming items coming up.

You really need a good shake out flight which will often find more issues than the prebuy. Pressurization should hold on one engine. Windows should be in good shape. Operate every system. A proper test flight will be well over an hour.

Tires right now are an issue. If they are nearly done, you may be grounded a while trying to buy new ones. Also check brake life left. 525 series requires more brake and tire money than the legacy airplanes with TRs.

Avionics. Thorough check out.

Fuel leaking from wings. Ideal if you can top it off and let it sit for a day and check it. Fixing leaks from the inspection plates is not a huge issue, but leaks from other places can be.

525 series has vapor cycle air conditioning (aka "freon").

Quote:
4) For those of you flying with the Tamarack active winglets, do they create any unusual burden when the plane sits on a ramp in the snow. I would assume that they are about like ailerons with respect to contamination risk issues, but thought I'd check because we get a lot of snow/ice and some airports don't have much for hangars/de-ice.

The real issue here is what happens when/if Tamarack disappears. You could end up with an unsupportable mod grounding your airplane.

They have already had a grounding and a bankruptcy. Something to keep in mind.

Mike C.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2022, 08:26 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/08/13
Posts: 437
Post Likes: +228
Company: Citation Jet Exchange
Location: St. Louis
Aircraft: 58P C510 C525 Excel
I've done multiple acceptance flights for 525s, brokered, and a manage a fleet of Citations. On the last 525 test flight I didn't have good airflow out of the overhead vents, found a disconnected hose. I didn't have good heat out of the armrest vents, same deal. I've seen a reverse wired defog fan. Check max dif (we were only able to get within .2 of it last time, but after some troubleshooting that was in limits and wasn't worth pushing it any further). Autopilot operation of course, especially on the straight 525 we've had some issues with engagement.

Basically just a good systems function check, it's amazing how much previous pilots/managers can let go that a prepurchase inspection would not catch. Burned out engine digits ($$$), generator control units not paralleling the load properly, signs of a weak battery on start.

-Citation Jet Exchange / Gateway Jets

_________________
The Citation Jet Exchange
www.CitationJetX.com
CJs, Mustangs, Excels


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2022, 13:02 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/19/09
Posts: 329
Post Likes: +269
Company: Premier Bone and Joint
Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
Mike,
Thanks for the very detailed post. We will pursue those recommendations. As to the relative merit of a legacy Citation vs. these relatively "newer" ones, I completely agree with you. Actually, I tried to push the group toward (ideally) staying with the turboprops because our trips are 100 to 200nm and a jet doesn't make that much sense to me, and if a jet is really desired, a relatively cheaper one with true TR's would be my preference for contaminated runway ops. But at least we aren't dropping $6M on a new jet! It won't affect me too much because I'll be staying in my -10 Mits as I'm the only one in the group who flies themselves. Still, I want the group to end up with a good aircraft that serves well. Oddly (to me) the Citation is only about 70 kts faster than my Mits and burns a bunch more fuel especially on the 100nm flights where the jet really can't take advantage of high altitude.

Corey,
Thank you; we will add those items to the list of things to check. The plane will make a flight from Kansas to Denver for a pre-buy and that should be a long enough trip to do most of these tests.

_________________
Thomas


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2022, 13:26 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 08/05/08
Posts: 287
Post Likes: +36
Location: Raleigh NC
Aircraft: CJ1, T210, J3
I have a 93 straight CJ.

I wouldn't want a G1000 cockpit. Don't think Cessna supports it. No updates.

Would check that.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2022, 13:51 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23613
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
I wouldn't want a G1000 cockpit. Don't think Cessna supports it. No updates.

An older CJ converted with an STC to GTN + TXi panels would be better. You can even get GFC 600 autopilot.

https://www.flyingmag.com/columbia-avio ... ation-525/

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2022, 14:01 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23613
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Actually, I tried to push the group toward (ideally) staying with the turboprops because our trips are 100 to 200nm and a jet doesn't make that much sense to me, and if a jet is really desired, a relatively cheaper one with true TR's would be my preference for contaminated runway ops.

Agreed.

There will be days at CJ will not be able to go and the turboprop will. Likewise, there will be days I could go in my V with TRs and the CJ can't.

A mission length of 100 to 200 nm is not a jet profile. If the group wants to use it for longer trips at times, then it can make sense, but the turboprop is going to be maybe 5 minutes slower, if that. There may be days the turboprop is faster, even.

Quote:
Oddly (to me) the Citation is only about 70 kts faster than my Mits

Probably less than that effectively. The jet won't be going its best speed in the mid 20s due to leg length. Jet routing can also be worse, though I suspect Wyoming is pretty open. The Vmo of the jet is only a bit more than the MU2 Vne, so at low altitudes, you are limited.

Quote:
The plane will make a flight from Kansas to Denver for a pre-buy and that should be a long enough trip to do most of these tests.

Well, not really. That's pretty short, just over an hour, and might need more time to try things out thoroughly.

Might be best to plan on a few approaches, some air work, and some systems tests with this flight. The test flight will be more revealing than the pre buy inspection, I predict.

Also, be aware that you need Williams permission to borescope the engines. If you borescope without that, and issues are found, Williams will not cover to repair them. If you have Williams engines, you play in their sandbox and they make and interpret the rules.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2022, 14:08 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/25/12
Posts: 3711
Post Likes: +3661
Location: KRHV San Jose, CA
Aircraft: A36, R44, C525
Yep to what Mike said. We didn’t even find a few of the problems, which were not many, until a number of hours into my mentoring.

_________________
Rocky Hill

Altitude is Everything.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2022, 15:27 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/02/12
Posts: 333
Post Likes: +100
Who are you using for the pre purchase inspection in Colorado or does anyone have a recommendation of a good facility other than Textron or Weststar?

Steve


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2022, 15:48 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/19/09
Posts: 329
Post Likes: +269
Company: Premier Bone and Joint
Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
Username Protected wrote:
Who are you using for the pre purchase inspection in Colorado or does anyone have a recommendation of a good facility other than Textron or Weststar?

Steve

The current plan is to use StraightFlite at Centennial Airport in Denver for the inspection. They were recommended by an engine consultant our company has used for many years.

_________________
Thomas


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2022, 16:55 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 07/11/11
Posts: 2252
Post Likes: +2214
Location: Queretaro / Woodlands
Aircraft: C525 BE40 D1K Waco
Username Protected wrote:
I have a 93 straight CJ.

I wouldn't want a G1000 cockpit. Don't think Cessna supports it. No updates.

Would check that.

This is not correct. Cessna fully supports it - in fact ProParts is cheaper with the G1000 than with the legacy avionics. Saying this is like saying you wouldn't buy a CJ1 with PL21 or a straight CJ since Collins/HW won't provide the latest features. In fact you are worse off with the Honeywell deck and trying to find spares and replacements. Cessna will not upgrade the features because of certification costs - that is all. The G1000 conversion has been extremely reliable (no issues in 7 years since I got it) and provided a 200 lbs payload increase (depends on each airframe and what is removed). The GTN + Txi conversion is also a good option, but you will not get the same weight savings.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation Jet
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2022, 17:48 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 4946
Post Likes: +4784
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
I’ve been “playing “ with 550s This year and have really come to appreciate the airplane as a great compromise between the 501 in the 560. I just finished this panel.

I think you should check out the 550 over the legacy CJ. It’s a big, comfortable, easy to fly airplane that doesn’t have any gotchas on it.

Mike


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.ei-85x150.jpg.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.Marsh.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.AAI.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.daytona.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.midwest2.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.