banner
banner

25 May 2022, 13:42 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Garmin International (Banner)



Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2022, 16:42 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/27/09
Posts: 878
Post Likes: +404
Location: Knoxville TN
Aircraft: C150J
Username Protected wrote:
I read an interesting statistic that the piston powered Pa-46 has a lower accident rate from engine failure than the turbine over the 10 year period that was reviewed. These are fairly recent numbers and the rate for both was very low and I am sure there are many variables but just throwing that out there.

Can you provide a source for this?


No link but recall it was aviation consumer.

Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2022, 22:22 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 12/10/10
Posts: 39
Post Likes: +9
Location: KNQA
Aircraft: TBM910, PA18
Username Protected wrote:
MOR=Manual OverRide.

SETPs have this lever, which I have used in training many times. Manually controls the system in case of a rollback where the engine remains on but the throttle control doesn’t work. I’m being very general here for the sake of simplicity. That’s why Pratt doesn’t count it as a “failure” and I agree with them. You still have ITT, NG, etc. Torque goes down. If you look at the gauges and that’s what you see, engage the MOR. If you look at the gauges and you don’t have ITT/NG, you’re a glider unless you can restart.

PT6 accessories occasionally fail on all these aircraft, like the prop governor sensor which happened to me - everything was running fine on takeoff and initial climb into the Houston Bravo, but the prop RPM indicator bounced around wildly then went to zero and I got the CAS message. Plane was humming along fine. After stopping my climb to investigate, I did a non-emergency RTB with ATC and we got the part shipped out by fedex and fixed on my field.

Our M600 has the original FCU. Never had an issue with it. Start temps definitely higher than the Woodward but I don’t believe you can swap one for the other… there is a six-year overhaul period for the FCU, which we will get to within a year or so. If not this annual, then the next one.

I have literally never worried about engine failure in our airplane. I practice the MOR in case of a rollback and have landed using the MOR several times as well has done air work with it. And as Chuck says, these airplanes are great gliders. It takes a heck of a lot to stop a PT6 once it starts … and the MOR is your insurance policy. I have not lost a wink of sleep about this issue.

I don’t know that the PA46 turbines are any different than the other SETPs with Pratts, other than the FCU choice but I have not done any incident research either. I worry more about getting contaminated JetA somewhere than a rollback…

Cheers

PS: Our recurrent is coming up next month and I’m sure I will get another chance at the MOR - it’s actually kind of fun flying the plane with it!



What type of contamination are you concerned with? The PT6 burns 100LL no problem and it would take a boatload of water to flameout.


Last edited on 18 Jan 2022, 22:23, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2022, 22:58 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 06/01/16
Posts: 399
Post Likes: +297
Location: Citrus County Florida
Aircraft: Shopping
I have done a fair amount of work with Woodward. When I had my TBM it had a Woodward FCU and prop governor. Every time I flew that airframe I was wondering which one was going to try and kill me. Let’s just say if you saw what I did you would not be so trusting of their products.

My MOR lever was supposed to max out at 85% torque, but at initial and recurrent everyone was very adamant about moving that lever slowly and deliberately. It was not linear and depending on what configuration you were in it could exceed 100% torque or 800 itt. It was not a good choice low and slow is what I was taught.

_________________
Anthony Dennis


Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2022, 23:32 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/28/13
Posts: 5402
Post Likes: +3299
Location: Indiana
Aircraft: C195, D17S, M20TN
Username Protected wrote:
I have done a fair amount of work with Woodward. When I had my TBM it had a Woodward FCU and prop governor. Every time I flew that airframe I was wondering which one was going to try and kill me. Let’s just say if you saw what I did you would not be so trusting of their products.

My MOR lever was supposed to max out at 85% torque, but at initial and recurrent everyone was very adamant about moving that lever slowly and deliberately. It was not linear and depending on what configuration you were in it could exceed 100% torque or 800 itt. It was not a good choice low and slow is what I was taught.


TBM:
Anthony I don’t remember anyone ever saying that the MOR maxed out. If it max’s out how could you over TQ or temp? John Elford trained me and practiced landing with the MOR. It is seat tightening but easy enough. If I was down low and had the presence of mind and quickness to unlatch and move the lever I don’t care if the engine OT’s or over TQ’d if it helps me get to the RWY safely. It’s the insurance companies.

Flew mine 6+ years(~860 hours), zero issues with FCU or prop governor. Sorry you did. Best traveling machine I was privileged to fly. Good luck with your search.

_________________
Chuck
KEVV


Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2022, 07:18 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/09/13
Posts: 173
Post Likes: +78
Location: Camarillo, Ca.
Aircraft: 2005 Meridian
Username Protected wrote:
I have done a fair amount of work with Woodward. When I had my TBM it had a Woodward FCU and prop governor. Every time I flew that airframe I was wondering which one was going to try and kill me. Let’s just say if you saw what I did you would not be so trusting of their products.

My MOR lever was supposed to max out at 85% torque, but at initial and recurrent everyone was very adamant about moving that lever slowly and deliberately. It was not linear and depending on what configuration you were in it could exceed 100% torque or 800 itt. It was not a good choice low and slow is what I was taught.



Low and slow is exactly when you want to use the MOR if you have a power failure.
I say MOR on the takeoff every time to remind myself that it is there.
I have not heard of a roll back in a long time but if it happens we have a fix that is really easy if it is practiced.


Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2022, 15:23 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 06/01/16
Posts: 399
Post Likes: +297
Location: Citrus County Florida
Aircraft: Shopping
Username Protected wrote:
I have done a fair amount of work with Woodward. When I had my TBM it had a Woodward FCU and prop governor. Every time I flew that airframe I was wondering which one was going to try and kill me. Let’s just say if you saw what I did you would not be so trusting of their products.

My MOR lever was supposed to max out at 85% torque, but at initial and recurrent everyone was very adamant about moving that lever slowly and deliberately. It was not linear and depending on what configuration you were in it could exceed 100% torque or 800 itt. It was not a good choice low and slow is what I was taught.


TBM:
Anthony I don’t remember anyone ever saying that the MOR maxed out. If it max’s out how could you over TQ or temp? John Elford trained me and practiced landing with the MOR. It is seat tightening but easy enough. If I was down low and had the presence of mind and quickness to unlatch and move the lever I don’t care if the engine OT’s or over TQ’d if it helps me get to the RWY safely. It’s the insurance companies.

Flew mine 6+ years(~860 hours), zero issues with FCU or prop governor. Sorry you did. Best traveling machine I was privileged to fly. Good luck with your search.


I too used John and i also used the mor lever. I said it was supposed to max out at 85% tongue, it didn't. I was not worried about the airframe, as you said it was the insurance companies, but unless John taught different people different ways he was always adamant about moving it slowly. To each his own, you can have your opinion, I worked with Woodward, i was not impressed.
_________________
Anthony Dennis


Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2022, 17:44 
Online


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 06/02/15
Posts: 1783
Post Likes: +1024
Location: Fresno, CA (KFAT)
Aircraft: "Barren"
Chuck and Anthony,

I was trained by John’s west coast partner Walt Adair so very similar philosophy and techniques. I found that once you get the “feel” of the MOR lever it’s very easy to put it at a desired TQ value. If one practices, and briefs on every takeoff I could see being able to put a hand on it and control with just a glance.

However, Walt was always adamant about what to do when below 1000 agl: first put all your focus and attention on the best straight ahead spot to put her down.

I have never heard the MOR torque stopping at 85%, as you experienced it will go higher. It makes sense to me especially down low. That engine is rated to 1200 hp, but de-rated via fuel flow to 700 hp by the fuel controller. In 850 mode the fuel controller is by passed. Since the MOR also bypasses the fuel controller it seems logical that it could allow enough fuel to take the power (technically exceeding Ng is the problem) somewhere above 850 and on the way to 1200.

_________________
Tom DeWitt
Previous: C172/C182/T210M/TBM850
APS 2004


Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2022, 19:53 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 05/30/17
Posts: 168
Post Likes: +136
To Tyler: I was thinking of DEF contamination in the JetA. Not water in 100LL.

Cheers


Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2022, 23:01 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/14/09
Posts: 797
Post Likes: +301
Location: Boise, ID
Aircraft: 06 Meridian,SuperCub
Username Protected wrote:
I have done a fair amount of work with Woodward. When I had my TBM it had a Woodward FCU and prop governor. Every time I flew that airframe I was wondering which one was going to try and kill me. Let’s just say if you saw what I did you would not be so trusting of their products.

My MOR lever was supposed to max out at 85% torque, but at initial and recurrent everyone was very adamant about moving that lever slowly and deliberately. It was not linear and depending on what configuration you were in it could exceed 100% torque or 800 itt. It was not a good choice low and slow is what I was taught.



Low and slow is exactly when you want to use the MOR if you have a power failure.
I say MOR on the takeoff every time to remind myself that it is there.
I have not heard of a roll back in a long time but if it happens we have a fix that is really easy if it is practiced.

I had a rollback at takeoff 2 years ago. I’ll respectfully disagree that you’ll instantly engage the MOR. You’ll look at gauges first, then oh shxx, then jockey the throttle. Gear up or down? Pitch? Then you’ll carefully engage the MOR, right? All at 200-300 AGL feet on a 6k runway. If you do, and it works, you’re a better pilot than I. I have yet to hear of anyone successfully engaging the MOR lever at gear up and saving the plane and engine. The MOR will only work if it’s an FCU failure. My FCU was torn down with no issues found. Fuel/oil heat exchanger is another possibility for rollback and there is an SB for that. Your MOR engagement would have yielded no results in that case. By then, you’re likely on the ground, hopefully not stalled. FYI, on the Meridian, there are two SBs on the Honeywell FCU. One from Honeywell, which as Chuck pointed out, is voluntary. The other is from Pratt and is a category 5 SB. You cannot do engine work with them without complying with that SB or you’ll have to sign a waiver. Ask me how I know.

Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2022, 10:09 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/09/13
Posts: 173
Post Likes: +78
Location: Camarillo, Ca.
Aircraft: 2005 Meridian
If you have a roll back due to FCU malfunction/anomaly the MOR will restore power. Not sure how you can have a roll back (engine running at idle but running) without an FCU issue.


Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2022, 10:28 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 14821
Post Likes: +18382
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Not sure how you can have a roll back (engine running at idle but running) without an FCU issue.

Anything that constricts fuel flow, say blocked fuel filter or plugged fuel line or weak fuel pump.

That could result in fuel flow effectively around idle give or take. If it gets less, you could flame out, gets more, you get some power.

The MOR lever won't fix any of those issues.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2022, 13:08 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/09/13
Posts: 173
Post Likes: +78
Location: Camarillo, Ca.
Aircraft: 2005 Meridian
I suppose it is ever so remotely possible to have fuel starvation where only idle is possible, I would find out if that was it after I deployed the MOR.


Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2022, 13:22 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/14/09
Posts: 797
Post Likes: +301
Location: Boise, ID
Aircraft: 06 Meridian,SuperCub
Pratt SB3426 is for oil scavenge system modification. An oil pump failure at high altitude may cause some issues too. To know if you are in a rollback or engine failure you have to check NG too. One more item in your list before engaging the MOR lever. Pratt SB3501 is for the FOHE. This can also cause a rollback. I have attached SB. Again, the MOR lever would not remedy this.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2022, 15:32 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 11/19/09
Posts: 1274
Post Likes: +698
Location: Wright Brother Award
Aircraft: BE300 LR-JET DA-50
I don't know the reason they don't count FCU failure in the PT6 MTBF.

If it quits...........it quits!

I've had two quit on me...............not eventful in a King Air.

_________________
Gami Serial# 0019
https://www.ebay.com/itm/333888896163 ☜☜☜Battery charger for Garmin® 496


Top

 Post subject: Re: PA-46TP engine failures
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2022, 13:10 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/09/13
Posts: 173
Post Likes: +78
Location: Camarillo, Ca.
Aircraft: 2005 Meridian
If my engine quits after takeoff and I am out of useable runway I am going for the MOR first, I am not going to look at my gauges as I am crashing into a house.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next



PWI, Inc. (Banner)

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2022

.airpower-85x50.jpg.
.bkool-85x50-2014-08-04.jpg.
.nexus-85x50.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.aopa-85x200.png.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.greenwich-85x50-2020-08-10.jpg.
.STLAir_85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.garmin-85x200-2021-11-22.jpg.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.dshannon.jpg.
.komn-85x50.png.
.Expert_Aircraft_Solution_85x50.jpg.
.xnaut-85x50.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.dbm.jpg.
.kingairdom.jpg.
.forge-85x50.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.ps_engineering.gif.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.camguard.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.instar.jpg.
.jetshades-85x150.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.Davis_Aviation_85x50.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.ssv-85x50.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.avionicssource-85x50.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.blr-85x200.jpg.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.echelon-85x50.png.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.EagleFuelCellsTriple.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.