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17 Aug 2022, 12:33 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2022, 17:50 
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Company: Life's a Beech, LLC
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I've flown a cirrus... but I enjoy the Beech product despite its ancient design. I'm not a fan of its slow speed handling. Ive got a lot of hours in a G5/G6 SR20 and I'm glad it has a chute because the thing feels like a dense plastic manhole cover.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2022, 18:11 
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Have you seen the price tag of a new A36, Cessna 172, or PA-28? If Cessna came out with a new Cessna P210, it would probably be $1 million plus. Believe me I get it, I can't believe there are that many pilots looking to spend $500+k on a light GA aircraft. I'm certainly not!

Agreed. That's my point. Ordinarily, innovation, new materials, improved manufacturing technologies all drive prices down.

Obviously, there's an issue with economies of scale right now since Beechcraft doesn't make many 36s, but Cirrus is at least selling a significant number of planes. I'm disappointed that, given those sales numbers, they can't innovate beyond including USB ports, a wireless door, or other irrelevant "improvements".


A person who could afford a Cadillac in the 70s could walk into an airplane dealer and buy an airplane. The cost of every component has far outstripped inflation. The engines and most every other part is now essentially a speciality item.

The is simply no demand relative to what there used to be because airplanes last so long. No one owns cars from the 1970s anymore, but most airplanes built in the 1970s are still flying (and worth as much or more than they were new).

Worldwide numbers are about 80 million cars made per year. GA aircraft manufacturing is a fart in the wind. Compare the cost of a car from a manufacturer that makes 100 a year. They are similar to a light airplane in cost, have one off parts that sometimes break, and from a value standpoint make no sense for most people.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2022, 18:33 
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John,
The Cadillac buyer may have been able to afford the plane but new planes back then were much closer to the price of a nice 1970’s new house. $25-45,000. Talking 1972 182 retail was ~49,000$ And Fleetwood Brougham was ~8,500.

Not today.

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Chuck
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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2022, 22:34 
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Joined: 01/24/19
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Location: Birmingham
Aircraft: Vans RV-6; Archer II
Username Protected wrote:
John,
The Cadillac buyer may have been able to afford the plane but new planes back then were much closer to the price of a nice 1970’s new house. $25-45,000. Talking 1972 182 retail was ~49,000$ And Fleetwood Brougham was ~8,500.

Not today.


If the price of the plane was around 6x what a top-end luxury sedan cost, they seem to still be in line. Base of a Skylane is about $540k, and a luxury sedan can easily run $90k. S-class base is over $100k these days.

Edited to add: I still think the prices are incredible, which is obviously due to a combo of (1) low volume (2) high regulation and (3) high liability reserves/insurance. The costs in the experimental market (eg Vans) give some insight about what lessening items 2 and 3 can get you.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2022, 09:13 
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Excellent targeted marketing. The average Cirrus customer is young and well off. Walk into a Cirrus sales center and you are treated better than a high end car dealer. The only close analogy is Apple or Chick-fil-A. No snobbery. Its approachable and very appealing to their target market and it works. Beech is locked in 1947. No future. These old worn out air frames with ridiculous asking prices are reaching the point of diminishing returns which makes buying new appealing. I will never be in this market but if I was Cirrus is where I would go.


Or I can just buy a jet for less than 33% of the cost of a new Cirrus and use the remaining funds to fly...I don't know, 600, 700, 800 hours? This isn't hyperbole as I'm living it.

When I first got into flying in my mid-late 20's, I was a victim of this type of marketing and bought an almost brand-new airplane. I quickly discovered that despite my doors being able to close a little bit better than the older airframes, our powerplants shared the same 60 year old design, our performance was nearly identical, and in many cases, the older airplanes were able to legally carry a lot more than me and go further. It didn't take long for me to recognize the error in my purchase.

Fast forward to today: I'm 38, have purchased a handful of different "old" airplanes over the years, and have a few thousand hours under my belt. I have yet to ever see the need for a brand new airplane; especially a single engine piston with no significant improvements to a >60 year old powerplant design.

If I'm ever fortunate enough to need a write-off large enough to justify a brand new aircraft then perhaps I will buy one. Otherwise, my personal opinion is that the only benefits of a brand new airplane - especially a Cirrus - are:

1) Doors that close well.

2) Cool paint job.

That's basically where the list of benefits stop for me.

Spending north of a million on a non-pressurized single engine piston and passing on the enormous amount of drastically more capable aircraft that can be had for far less than that seems absolutely insane to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2022, 12:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
Excellent targeted marketing. The average Cirrus customer is young and well off. Walk into a Cirrus sales center and you are treated better than a high end car dealer. The only close analogy is Apple or Chick-fil-A. No snobbery. Its approachable and very appealing to their target market and it works. Beech is locked in 1947. No future. These old worn out air frames with ridiculous asking prices are reaching the point of diminishing returns which makes buying new appealing. I will never be in this market but if I was Cirrus is where I would go.


Or I can just buy a jet for less than 33% of the cost of a new Cirrus and use the remaining funds to fly...I don't know, 600, 700, 800 hours? This isn't hyperbole as I'm living it.

When I first got into flying in my mid-late 20's, I was a victim of this type of marketing and bought an almost brand-new airplane. I quickly discovered that despite my doors being able to close a little bit better than the older airframes, our powerplants shared the same 60 year old design, our performance was nearly identical, and in many cases, the older airplanes were able to legally carry a lot more than me and go further. It didn't take long for me to recognize the error in my purchase.

Fast forward to today: I'm 38, have purchased a handful of different "old" airplanes over the years, and have a few thousand hours under my belt. I have yet to ever see the need for a brand new airplane; especially a single engine piston with no significant improvements to a >60 year old powerplant design.

If I'm ever fortunate enough to need a write-off large enough to justify a brand new aircraft then perhaps I will buy one. Otherwise, my personal opinion is that the only benefits of a brand new airplane - especially a Cirrus - are:

1) Doors that close well.

2) Cool paint job.

That's basically where the list of benefits stop for me.

Spending north of a million on a non-pressurized single engine piston and passing on the enormous amount of drastically more capable aircraft that can be had for far less than that seems absolutely insane to me.


Maybe however the Cirrus buyer is low time and has maybe a private and IR rating. He she or it isn't a 70 year old aviation enthusiast that appreciates old airplanes.

A large percentage of their sales go to people who do not have a license so they are not in a position to go out and by a Jet that needs a type rating (this nugget is from my insurance agent). In fact I would wager most Cirrus buyers will never be qualified to fly a jet and be insurable in it. I could qualify but I have no need nor desire for a jet. A Baron maybe as I used to own one of those but for my needs I just don't need or want that much airplane. A Cirrus is a lot more than doors that close nicely. No corrosion, new seals, hoses, in rig, not wrecked and rebuilt three times, complete logs, a warranty, excellent dealer support, a CHUTE, new limits air frame, ect... Why pay 180K for a 40 year old ragged out 172 with poorly functioning avionics, paint peeling off, spotty maintenance history with logs full of BS when you can finance and maybe deduct a percentage of your costs then sell after a few years an airplane that is similar to your luxury car (as the Cirrus buyer would look at it). Again this isn't my tax bracket but for those who can stroke a check for a new airplane it makes sense especially when you consider the demographic.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2022, 13:16 
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Joined: 05/09/18
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Impressive marketing, and no doubt a targeted appeal. And, for certain types of missions, the Cirrus could certainly fit the bill. But notice that they’re still wearing headsets and would be sucking on O2 in the mid-high teens and FL’s (the video didn’t show that, did it, even though they were clearly at high altitude airports). So for extended traveling, in most types of weather, gotta’ believe a pressurized jet or TP is still going to be the ride of choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2022, 14:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
Excellent targeted marketing. The average Cirrus customer is young and well off. Walk into a Cirrus sales center and you are treated better than a high end car dealer. The only close analogy is Apple or Chick-fil-A. No snobbery. Its approachable and very appealing to their target market and it works. Beech is locked in 1947. No future. These old worn out air frames with ridiculous asking prices are reaching the point of diminishing returns which makes buying new appealing. I will never be in this market but if I was Cirrus is where I would go.


Or I can just buy a jet for less than 33% of the cost of a new Cirrus and use the remaining funds to fly...I don't know, 600, 700, 800 hours? This isn't hyperbole as I'm living it.

When I first got into flying in my mid-late 20's, I was a victim of this type of marketing and bought an almost brand-new airplane. I quickly discovered that despite my doors being able to close a little bit better than the older airframes, our powerplants shared the same 60 year old design, our performance was nearly identical, and in many cases, the older airplanes were able to legally carry a lot more than me and go further. It didn't take long for me to recognize the error in my purchase.

Fast forward to today: I'm 38, have purchased a handful of different "old" airplanes over the years, and have a few thousand hours under my belt. I have yet to ever see the need for a brand new airplane; especially a single engine piston with no significant improvements to a >60 year old powerplant design.

If I'm ever fortunate enough to need a write-off large enough to justify a brand new aircraft then perhaps I will buy one. Otherwise, my personal opinion is that the only benefits of a brand new airplane - especially a Cirrus - are:

1) Doors that close well.

2) Cool paint job.

That's basically where the list of benefits stop for me.

Spending north of a million on a non-pressurized single engine piston and passing on the enormous amount of drastically more capable aircraft that can be had for far less than that seems absolutely insane to me.


That's like saying don't buy a new car, buy a 2005 camry. It'll get you to point B just as well.

For the record I'd never buy a new cirrus, but I think they are smart as hell and incredible at advertising.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2022, 15:22 
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Username Protected wrote:

That's like saying don't buy a new car, buy a 2005 camry. It'll get you to point B just as well.

For the record I'd never buy a new cirrus, but I think they are smart as hell and incredible at advertising.


I'm not disputing the success of Cirrus. They are clearly very good at what they do.

The car analogy seems like a stretch. Modern cars are lightyears ahead of those made 30-40 years ago…in engine technology, performance, hauling capability, safety, etc.. You can’t say the same for single-engine piston aircraft.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2022, 16:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
John,
The Cadillac buyer may have been able to afford the plane but new planes back then were much closer to the price of a nice 1970’s new house. $25-45,000. Talking 1972 182 retail was ~49,000$ And Fleetwood Brougham was ~8,500.

Not today.


That's higher than I had read, this is from an AOPA article, maybe things changed significantly in the few years between 67 and 72:

- In 1967, median household income in the U.S. was $12,000 and a four-seat Piper Cherokee was $16,000. [about $127,000 in 2021 dollars]

$12,000 today is about $100,000 today, whereas today's average income in the US is $68,000. I didn't dive into these numbers very far, but as most of the economic growth over the last 30-40 years has gone to the wealthy, that may be as big a factor as the loss of economies of scale.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2022, 16:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
John,
The Cadillac buyer may have been able to afford the plane but new planes back then were much closer to the price of a nice 1970’s new house. $25-45,000. Talking 1972 182 retail was ~49,000$ And Fleetwood Brougham was ~8,500.

Not today.


That's higher than I had read, this is from an AOPA article, maybe things changed significantly in the few years between 67 and 72:

- In 1967, median household income in the U.S. was $12,000 and a four-seat Piper Cherokee was $16,000. [about $127,000 in 2021 dollars]

$12,000 today is about $100,000 today, whereas today's average income in the US is $68,000. I didn't dive into these numbers very far, but as most of the economic growth over the last 30-40 years has gone to the wealthy, that may be as big a factor as the loss of economies of scale.


Look at the comment by Travis Cross on this post, I think that explains it better than I have read:

https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2007/ ... ly-income/

Excerpt:

Quote:
Looking at the question from another angle, in 1967, a Piper Cherokee cost about 450 ounces of gold. Today that airplane costs about 284 ounces of gold, representing a modest year over year decrease in the price level of Cherokee airplanes, which is what one would actually expect given technological improvements and the much greater availability of ready substitutes for new Cherokee aircraft (such as the large stock of used Cherokee aircraft).

Over the last 40 years, the Federal Reserve has been sharply and steadily devaluing the dollar, which distorts the economy, effects a transfer of wealth to favored groups, and makes most of us poorer and less able to buy Piper Cherokee aircraft. This fact has been partially obscured by our fantastic advances in technology, communications, and productivity. Because of these advances, prices should fall year over year in most industries [3]. The extent to which prices have not fallen therefore represents a hidden ‘inflation’ that is never calculated when we look purely at the degree to which prices have steadily risen.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2022, 15:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
If I'm ever fortunate enough to need a write-off large enough to justify a brand new aircraft then perhaps I will buy one. Otherwise, my personal opinion is that the only benefits of a brand new airplane - especially a Cirrus - are:

1) Doors that close well.

2) Cool paint job.

That's basically where the list of benefits stop for me.

Spending north of a million on a non-pressurized single engine piston and passing on the enormous amount of drastically more capable aircraft that can be had for far less than that seems absolutely insane to me.



Well, you can strike #1 from the list from my experience flying with a friend in a brand-new Cirrus SR22 home from Knoxville delivery center about a year ago. The passenger side door, well, it needed work.

Paint job was very, very cool though.

Loaded with features.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2022, 05:39 
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Don't underestimate the appeal of the parachute in the marketing equation.

Seriously, maybe not for the pilot flying solo, but for that "what if" case of pilot incapacitation to be used by one of the passengers.

Concern for family members' safety, or even the opinion of family members themselves, may have a significant affect on buying decisions.

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Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2022, 11:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
Well, you can strike #1 from the list from my experience flying with a friend in a brand-new Cirrus SR22 home from Knoxville delivery center about a year ago. The passenger side door, well, it needed work.

Paint job was very, very cool though.

Loaded with features.


A little surprising with it new, but stuff happens. The only SR22 I've flown with a door issue was in a rental fleet; i.e. ridden hard and put up wet.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2022, 22:25 
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Wives like the chute and that wins sales.

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