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07 Aug 2022, 20:59 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2022, 07:13 
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Gimicky but puddle light projectors are a thing on higher-end luxury cars. Whatever sells the plane.

I have exterior courtesy lights on the Columbia. They're actually kind of nice. No groovy logo projectors though.


My new Napoleon Grill has a puddle light displaying the company logo on it in front of it…


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2022, 08:27 
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I would suspect the "up to 9kts" comes with a lot of asterisks and probably amounts to a minor change in the paperwork limitations on the engine at altitude or some such.


*pitching down 2 degrees required.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2022, 09:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
Gimicky but puddle light projectors are a thing on higher-end luxury cars. Whatever sells the plane.

I have exterior courtesy lights on the Columbia. They're actually kind of nice. No groovy logo projectors though.


My new Napoleon Grill has a puddle light displaying the company logo on it in front of it…


I would guess the ribeyes will be 9% better tasting because of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2022, 10:02 
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Oh I’m sure they got 9 knots in some set of circumstances or their lawyers wouldn’t have allowed them to say it. My guess is its some combination of high altitude and very low weight; or maybe a clean wing G6 22. Not sure how power/MP will fit into it however. Basically, it sounds like they got the 22 with FIKI to be about the same speed in most circumstances as the clean wing versions. Anytime someone improves the aerodynamics it’s a good thing as it enhances efficiency. But actual TAS will depend more on the pilot’s decisions than the aircraft, in terms of how you manage the engine and power. But it’s still a good thing.

Honestly, they were going to raise the prices 5-6% anyway from 2021 for inflation and they were already booked out for 2022 deliveries. They could have done literally nothing and sold all the planes (deliveries on new orders are into 2023 now). So at least they did something positive to the airframe in addition to convenience features.

I have cool puddle lights on my Audi RS7 that everybody likes. Passengers will like the puddle lights on the Cirrus too. Pilots will, generally speaking, not care about them versus the general exterior lighting that they put in a couple years ago. But it’s all good and as noted, Textron has been doing the same kind of thing on the 525s.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2022, 14:30 
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My guess is that the 9kts came primarily from more care at the transition from the TKS panels to the wing panel. I don't know what they were previously using in this transition space specifically but it felt rubbery to the touch and was painted over using a thin layer of clear coat. This area of the wing and tail surfaces is a nightmare for an aerodynamicist who's trying to achieve a high degree of laminar flow as it's a very critical point along the airfoil. Small bugs, rain and the smallest imperfections can cause the boundary layer to trip to turbulent. Just ask guys who fly Avantis about how sensitive the canard leading edge is to rain or bugs or dirt to get a feel for how critical surface smoothness is to laminar flow.

In all the FIKI SR birds I've seen, this transition area was 'pretty good' but far from perfect. This is compounded by the fact that the clear coat over this 'rubber' transition wears over time and needs to be re-cleared every couple of years. Depending on the level of skill of the guy painting this, a tiny 'bump' could be introduced on the back edge of the clear coat, also potentially causing a trip to turbulent flow.

Anecdotally, 'clean' wing SR's vs. FIKI birds fly 5-6 kts faster, so cleaning up this area on FIKI birds could definitely pick up a good chunk of that difference. In the promo video, they also mention cleaning up of the wheel pants. It appears that they tightened the gap between the front of the pant and tire, which I'm sure is also helpful given there are (3) pants.

My expectation is that seeing 9kts true difference in speed would be rare unless you were at the highest altitudes. However 5-7 kts faster everyday at lower altitudes would be a nice improvement.

Someone on COPA mentioned he saw 181 kts TAS at 9K in the new bird. I don't know if it was a Turbo or N/A but in any case that's quite good if true. I had to get to 16-17K ft in my G5 SR22T to see 181kts TAS.


If you watch the video, they state what you suspect; TKS wing bonding cleanup. They also cleaned up the wheel pants to reduce drag at the wheel opening.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2022, 16:42 
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Joined: 03/23/08
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My general formula for this type of advertised improvement:
(Claim/2)M=Expectation

Or for Work delivery completion estimates, product delivery dates etc you can use:
(Claim*2)M=E

Where
E is your reasonable expectation of actuality
M is a random modifier of either zero or one to help you realize you have a good chance to get nothing and like it. :)

Tj

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2022, 16:44 
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If you watch the video, they state what you suspect; TKS wing bonding cleanup. They also cleaned up the wheel pants to reduce drag at the wheel opening.

Let's put 9 knots speed up in context.

Air drag is the square of the speed. Double speed is 4 times the drag.

But it is worse than that, as thrust from the engine decrease as the inverse of speed. If you go 5% faster, the engine will give 5% less thrust for the same power. Power is thrust times distance, and going faster takes more distance.

But it is even worse than that as prop efficiency decreases with speed. The blade angle got higher and the blade lift vector is not as aligned with the direction of flight any more.

All this adds up to a slightly larger than cubic relationship for a prop airplane between speed and drag, let us call it an exponent of 3.1.

A 180 knot airplane going 9 knots faster is going 5% faster. To do this with no change in power, you need the drag coefficient to go down 16% due to the more than cubic relationship.

To say it another way, the "clean up" would have to remove 1/6th of ALL the drag on the airframe to get a 5% speed up.

The small tweaks being discussed won't have that much impact. They just can't.

This means the 9 knot claim is a lie, or it involves more power in some way.

It is really, really hard to make planes go meaningfully faster with aerodynamic tweaks. This is why almost all claims made for "speed up" mods are wildly optimistic.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2022, 17:16 
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This thread reminds me of the SF50 G2+ thread about 20% improvements. Lots of discussions. I skimmed back through it. Looks like the claim was substantially correct (but I’m not sure as there were lots of pages).


viewtopic.php?f=49&t=198198&hilit=Cirrus+jet&start=105


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2022, 19:13 
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I understand that it is challenging to gain knots from aerodynamic improvements. But it can be done and has been done. Diamond improved the performance of the DA42 when it moved from the NG to the -VI, and a good percentage of those improvements came from aerodynamic enhancements/drag reduction, along with changes to the prop. So I wouldn't dismiss the Cirrus claims out of hand without seeing more information. However, I would expect any real world mission improvement to be substantially more modest than the claimed "up to 9 knots."


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2022, 19:28 
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Obviously, there's an issue with economies of scale right now since Beechcraft doesn't make many 36s, but Cirrus is at least selling a significant number of planes. I'm disappointed that, given those sales numbers, they can't innovate beyond including USB ports, a wireless door, or other irrelevant "improvements".


This is pretty sad, but I think many has to be, at this point, replaced with any :-(


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2022, 19:59 
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Oof. Just pulled up that GAMA report.

https://gama.aero/wp-content/uploads/20 ... portQ3.pdf

Airbus shipped more corporate jets (5) than Beech did Bonanzas and Barons. I know that's a silly comparison but it just felt striking. And if you remove what I presume to be flight school purchases (surely most of the 172s and PA28s) it's clear that Cirrus absolutely dominates the personal piston market now. Not sure how Diamond purchases break down but it looks like they score second place. And I'm always impressed at how many airplanes Extra sell - a steady 5 or 6 a quarter - given their aerobatic niche.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2022, 01:40 
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Joined: 12/01/12
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Aircraft: IV-P, PA18,C340A
Username Protected wrote:
If you watch the video, they state what you suspect; TKS wing bonding cleanup. They also cleaned up the wheel pants to reduce drag at the wheel opening.

Let's put 9 knots speed up in context.

Air drag is the square of the speed. Double speed is 4 times the drag.

But it is worse than that, as thrust from the engine decrease as the inverse of speed. If you go 5% faster, the engine will give 5% less thrust for the same power. Power is thrust times distance, and going faster takes more distance.

But it is even worse than that as prop efficiency decreases with speed. The blade angle got higher and the blade lift vector is not as aligned with the direction of flight any more.

All this adds up to a slightly larger than cubic relationship for a prop airplane between speed and drag, let us call it an exponent of 3.1.

A 180 knot airplane going 9 knots faster is going 5% faster. To do this with no change in power, you need the drag coefficient to go down 16% due to the more than cubic relationship.

To say it another way, the "clean up" would have to remove 1/6th of ALL the drag on the airframe to get a 5% speed up.

The small tweaks being discussed won't have that much impact. They just can't.

This means the 9 knot claim is a lie, or it involves more power in some way.

It is really, really hard to make planes go meaningfully faster with aerodynamic tweaks. This is why almost all claims made for "speed up" mods are wildly optimistic.

Mike C.


On the Lancair IVP, a poor installation of tks panels can cost 20 kts alone. Thin leading edge tape 6-8 kts. But of course it is also a much more critical laminar airfoil.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2022, 06:44 
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On the Lancair IVP, a poor installation of tks panels can cost 20 kts alone. Thin leading edge tape 6-8 kts. But of course it is also a much more critical laminar airfoil.

I know a fellow Velocity builder put leading edge tape on his canard and main wing. He said that he lost five knots. He couldn't believe it and removed the tape. Five knots came back.

Put the tape back on and lost the five knots. The tape was pretty thin. Maybe a little thicker than masking tape.

Fortunately, I was still building at the time so I took extra care to make certain the wings and fuselage were as clean as I could make it.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2022, 21:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
And would you look at that, it also has those problematic LED ice lights that do not actually melt any ice :ohno:


they are bathed in TKS from the prop....

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2022, 21:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
And would you look at that, it also has those problematic LED ice lights that do not actually melt any ice :ohno:


Well, they don't need heat, because they are bathed in TKS from the prop....verified during certification by people that know things.

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