18 Apr 2024, 07:35 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022 Posted: 12 Jan 2022, 16:12 |
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Joined: 12/19/11 Posts: 3303 Post Likes: +1424 Company: Bottom Line Experts Location: KTOL - Toledo, OH
Aircraft: 2004 SR22 G2
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My guess is that the 9kts came primarily from more care at the transition from the TKS panels to the wing panel. I don't know what they were previously using in this transition space specifically but it felt rubbery to the touch and was painted over using a thin layer of clear coat. This area of the wing and tail surfaces is a nightmare for an aerodynamicist who's trying to achieve a high degree of laminar flow as it's a very critical point along the airfoil. Small bugs, rain and the smallest imperfections can cause the boundary layer to trip to turbulent. Just ask guys who fly Avantis about how sensitive the canard leading edge is to rain or bugs or dirt to get a feel for how critical surface smoothness is to laminar flow.
In all the FIKI SR birds I've seen, this transition area was 'pretty good' but far from perfect. This is compounded by the fact that the clear coat over this 'rubber' transition wears over time and needs to be re-cleared every couple of years. Depending on the level of skill of the guy painting this, a tiny 'bump' could be introduced on the back edge of the clear coat, also potentially causing a trip to turbulent flow.
Anecdotally, 'clean' wing SR's vs. FIKI birds fly 5-6 kts faster, so cleaning up this area on FIKI birds could definitely pick up a good chunk of that difference. In the promo video, they also mention cleaning up of the wheel pants. It appears that they tightened the gap between the front of the pant and tire, which I'm sure is also helpful given there are (3) pants.
My expectation is that seeing 9kts true difference in speed would be rare unless you were at the highest altitudes. However 5-7 kts faster everyday at lower altitudes would be a nice improvement.
Someone on COPA mentioned he saw 181 kts TAS at 9K in the new bird. I don't know if it was a Turbo or N/A but in any case that's quite good if true. I had to get to 16-17K ft in my G5 SR22T to see 181kts TAS.
_________________ Don Coburn Corporate Expense Reduction Specialist 2004 SR22 G2
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022 Posted: 12 Jan 2022, 18:10 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: 6 iterations in 20 years is definitely impressive for the GA piston fleet. 18 iterations over 65 years for the Cessna 172. In 2020, Textron sold 241 172s (one every business day of the year), Cirrus sold 291 SR22s. Not as far apart as most think. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022 Posted: 12 Jan 2022, 19:44 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Mike I know you hate Cirrus but even you have to admit the 172 isn’t a comp to the SR22. Just amused that Cirrus faithful think the fact the product has improved over the years is something new in GA when an airplane first sold 65 years ago is still being built today after several iterations. I think the Cirrus fan base is too wrapped up in their worship to realize that Cirrus is selling them USB outlets for $50K more. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022 Posted: 12 Jan 2022, 20:18 |
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Joined: 10/15/17 Posts: 725 Post Likes: +448 Location: DFW
Aircraft: F35
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Username Protected wrote: 6 iterations in 20 years is definitely impressive for the GA piston fleet. 18 iterations over 65 years for the Cessna 172. In 2020, Textron sold 241 172s (one every business day of the year), Cirrus sold 291 SR22s. Not as far apart as most think. Mike C.
Good point! In my post, the comparison was to the Bonanza. Which has been stagnant/neglected. I didn't realize the 172 sold that well.
Now I'm no fan boy of cirrus, nor are you it appears. You can probably read that in my post I called the cirrus model progressions superficial. 9 knots though, c'mon man. You have to acknowledge that someone's moving the ball forward rather than sitting on their thumbs.
With all that said, I fly a Bonanza so
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022 Posted: 12 Jan 2022, 20:38 |
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Joined: 11/30/18 Posts: 2230 Post Likes: +1720 Location: NH
Aircraft: F33A, A320
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Username Protected wrote: I think that's called the SF50 Vision Jet. Right, but that doesn't help owners who don't want to spend millions on getting a capability that was available at a fraction of that price from the major manufacturers 40 years ago. Where's the innovation? A Cessna 210 did all of these things and was widely and relatively cheaply available decades ago. Given modern manufacturing and materials technology, true innovation would show us something new like that. Not a massively more expensive alternative. That's easy.[/quote] How much was the 210 brand new, "decades" ago? Easy to convert that to 2022 dollars to see.
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022 Posted: 12 Jan 2022, 21:11 |
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Joined: 04/06/11 Posts: 7945 Post Likes: +3981
Aircraft: Warbirds
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Username Protected wrote: 6 iterations in 20 years is definitely impressive for the GA piston fleet. 18 iterations over 65 years for the Cessna 172. In 2020, Textron sold 241 172s (one every business day of the year), Cirrus sold 291 SR22s. Not as far apart as most think. Mike C. What has been the numbers over the last 7 years. I could see the Trump Tax accelerated depreciation being a factor in selling more training aircraft over the last few years. Prior to that what was the differential?
_________________ Be careful what you ask for, your mechanic wants to sleep at night.
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022 Posted: 12 Jan 2022, 21:30 |
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Joined: 01/30/09 Posts: 3353 Post Likes: +1961 Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
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Username Protected wrote: I think that's called the SF50 Vision Jet. How much was the 210 brand new, "decades" ago? Easy to convert that to 2022 dollars to see.
Nah, I've looked. A new 1979 Cessna 172 was $22,300.00 and a new 1979 P210 was about 170,000. About 8x.
If you do a straight inflation calculator, the 172 would only be $86,000 and the P210 would be $653,000.
But we all know you cannot touch a Skyhawk, even a used one for $86,000 today. A new G1000 Skyhawk is right about $432,000. That's about 19-20x price inflation. A new P210 with the same cost multiplier would be $3,300,000.
Hence, the SF50 makes more sense from a lot of angles, including cost.
Cessna only sold a total of 874 P210 models in the 8 year production run.
I think Cirrus is on track to better numbers with the SF50.
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022 Posted: 12 Jan 2022, 22:27 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Guys the baggage door has a remote opener! Bombs away! Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus G6 2022 Posted: 13 Jan 2022, 07:11 |
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Joined: 08/30/10 Posts: 4133 Post Likes: +2125 Location: Kingston, NY (20N)
Aircraft: 1985 Bonanza F33A
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Username Protected wrote: My guess is that the 9kts came primarily from more care at the transition from the TKS panels to the wing panel. I don't know what they were previously using in this transition space specifically but it felt rubbery to the touch and was painted over using a thin layer of clear coat. This area of the wing and tail surfaces is a nightmare for an aerodynamicist who's trying to achieve a high degree of laminar flow as it's a very critical point along the airfoil. Small bugs, rain and the smallest imperfections can cause the boundary layer to trip to turbulent. Just ask guys who fly Avantis about how sensitive the canard leading edge is to rain or bugs or dirt to get a feel for how critical surface smoothness is to laminar flow.
In all the FIKI SR birds I've seen, this transition area was 'pretty good' but far from perfect. This is compounded by the fact that the clear coat over this 'rubber' transition wears over time and needs to be re-cleared every couple of years. Depending on the level of skill of the guy painting this, a tiny 'bump' could be introduced on the back edge of the clear coat, also potentially causing a trip to turbulent flow.
Anecdotally, 'clean' wing SR's vs. FIKI birds fly 5-6 kts faster, so cleaning up this area on FIKI birds could definitely pick up a good chunk of that difference. In the promo video, they also mention cleaning up of the wheel pants. It appears that they tightened the gap between the front of the pant and tire, which I'm sure is also helpful given there are (3) pants.
My expectation is that seeing 9kts true difference in speed would be rare unless you were at the highest altitudes. However 5-7 kts faster everyday at lower altitudes would be a nice improvement.
Someone on COPA mentioned he saw 181 kts TAS at 9K in the new bird. I don't know if it was a Turbo or N/A but in any case that's quite good if true. I had to get to 16-17K ft in my G5 SR22T to see 181kts TAS. The 08 SR22TN I flew would do 184TAS at 10k and 206TAS at 17k so, I would imagine the bird the COPA poster was flying was not a Turbo. A clean G3 GTS is a 175TAS bird at 6-9k and slightly faster than the G5 and G6 models due to the lighter weight and other changes the G5/6 had to accommodate the higher max gross weight. I find the “up to 9kt faster” statement suspect, especially when they previously said that a retract model would only gain 10kts.
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