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07 Jul 2022, 04:38 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 00:28 
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Joined: 10/24/19
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Location: Syracuse, NY (KSYR)
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Eric,

I have zero Lance/Saratoga time but, I owned a 74 210L for over 6 years. Sold it in 2005, (one of those wish I still owned it situations). It was a normally aspirated model with an io-520. 285hp max continuous. The main gear doors had already been removed prior to my ownership and a 3 bladed hartzell prop had been installed. I loved the plane because it was a great performer. Stable IFR platform with 6 seats, (rear 2 were really only good for children). With full fuel (89 gals), I could still carry over 900 lbs and be well within limits. Which as I’m sure you know, it is very uncommon to be able to fill up a GA aircraft with gas and still be able to put people in all of the seats. I planned for 14gph and a tas of 160kts. That’s 5 1/2 hours of bladder busting endurance with a 45 min reserve. Visibility was great from all seats with the high wing and no wing spars. Gear lever down - look out the window and you can see that it’s down. One green light that illuminates when the nose gear locks. Had trouble with the gear only on one occasion. Gear lever down - nothing. Cycle again and again. Nothing. Ended up pumping the gear down by hand, which worked as it should and green light came on when locked. Landed without further incident. Turned out to be a faulty squat switch on the nose gear which prevents the gear from folding up while on the ground (should someone play with the lever). Switch replaced - back in service.

Even with the new wing spar AD, I would still be glad to own it. Like most models, there are good ones out there - you just have to find one that has been flown regularly. These are the ones that have been cared for.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 08:59 
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Company: Wings Insurance
Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
Username Protected wrote:
Currently insurance companies are gun shy of the 210, high incidence of gear issues and very expensive to repair. Just finished an Annual / Pre-purchase on one for a customer, a very nice T210N, buyer had a great deal of 210 time, last one was a Silver Eagle turbine 210, he is 75 years old, cannot get coverage on the aircraft he just purchased.


He's got the triple whammy going there.....yes the 210 has limited underwriting market acceptance even worse when STC'd converted to turbine and then on top of that age 75. There is no chance for him to secure any 'reasonable' insurance coverage I'm afraid.

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Wings Insurance
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E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 09:22 
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Joined: 09/02/11
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Location: N Alabama
Aircraft: 1968 B55
I've got maybe 50 hours SIC in my dad's 210 back when I was a rebellious teen and nearly 700 PIC in my fixed-gear PA32. When I bought the PA32, I specifically didn't buy a 210 because of the mx history of his bird.

The PA32 platform (fixed, retract, turbo, whatever) has great useful load, very roomy cabin, and terrific stability. Heavy control feel, especially in roll. Good parts availability at a reasonable cost for most things, plus fairly uncomplicated systems, plus ease of access for mechanics. Beware the variants with dual-drive magnetos (single point of failure). I am told insurance is reasonable but don't know what 210 insurance goes for these days.

The 210 is faster, lighter in roll and pitch, has the nice high wing for downward visibility, and is easier for the pilot to enter and exit. Early models have the Gear System From Hell™.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 11:16 
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Aircraft: Piper PA-32R 300
No experience in a 210 but I have over 200 hours in my straight tailed Lance. Here's some info that may shorten your interest or daydreaming about one;

The prices have increased to an almost eye-watering level over the past year. Although I got a great deal on mine, I could sell it for 3X what I paid for it within 24 hours. And I bought it just over 2 years ago.

The reason for this I believe is the sheer utility of it. It does a LOT of things well. No speed demon but it checks a lot of boxes that people seem to be interested in at this moment.

All planes have gone up in price lately but this one has really taken a leap.

Good luck with your research and if I can answer any questions about the Lance, let me know.

_________________
Ron

"It rubs the lotion on it's skin"


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 11:19 
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Joined: 12/29/14
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Location: Brunswick, Ga
Aircraft: PA32RT-300T
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My fixed gear Saratoga flies like a suburban. I owned a Cherokee 180 before the Toga and it handled similar but the longer tapered wing of the Toga flew a little different.

I’m slow @145 knots TAS but I get that at 13-14 gph. With a 1430 useful load nobody gets left at home. Myself, the wife and 3 kids. Pack it full of gear and 4 hours of fuel and she is still well within gross.

I love my Toga. I’d have to give up some of the things I love to go 10-20 knots faster.



I can echo this sentiment except that if desired, I can run it 24 GPH and see around 170kts. But that’s with a Garrett Turbocharger making sh.. happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2022, 17:55 
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Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 133
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Location: Carson City, NV
Aircraft: 1981 P210N
I own a 1981 P210N. In addition to the pressurization, it has A/C, known ice equipped, but with the Flint tips that cert is removed. Mine has a useful of 1400#. I removed the seat behind the pilot. If I fill all the tanks (123gal - 738#) is still have 662# to play with. That fuel yields 5.83 hours with an hour reserve so at 170TAS could be almost 1000nM range (we almost never do that). Our normal flight is only two hours so I load 7gal in each tip and 46 in the mains. Our payload then could be around 1000#, though it never is. Cruising 16-21k ft is nice - generally no other traffic. It is a very stable instrument platform, handles cross-winds and turb nicely and the wife loves it.

All in cost for 2021 was $372/hr at 125 hours which included a fairly expensive annual. All in cost for 2020 was $439/hr.

Cons
Tightly cowled - correctly described as 10 pounds of s**t in a five pound bag...
...so every maintenance action requires a mechanic with an extra arm with a tiny hand and three elbows coming out of their forehead.
CHT's run high in climb so climb rate can be limited in summer to 3-500fpm (dog)
Likely to require top overhaul before major overhaul - had mine in 2020
Heavy feel - it's an SUV, not a sports car.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2022, 18:38 
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Joined: 01/23/13
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Company: Kokotele Guitar Works
Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
Ron, what do you normally see for cruise performance?

Username Protected wrote:
No experience in a 210 but I have over 200 hours in my straight tailed Lance. Here's some info that may shorten your interest or daydreaming about one;

The prices have increased to an almost eye-watering level over the past year. Although I got a great deal on mine, I could sell it for 3X what I paid for it within 24 hours. And I bought it just over 2 years ago.

The reason for this I believe is the sheer utility of it. It does a LOT of things well. No speed demon but it checks a lot of boxes that people seem to be interested in at this moment.

All planes have gone up in price lately but this one has really taken a leap.

Good luck with your research and if I can answer any questions about the Lance, let me know.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2022, 14:40 
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I have a 1975 210 Normally aspirated that I have owned for 3 years. Still have the gear doors and I have done lots of preventative maintenance to ensure the gear is in good shape (replaced all the hydraulic hoses, cleaned the microswitch contacts, changed the saddle pads, rigged the landing gear). When maintained it works well.

Have an acquaintance that also owned a 210 on the field and saw me pre-flighting the plane by opening the gear doors and crawling under the plane to check the hoses and switches and asked me "why would you do that"? and i said, "because i want to make sure it goes up and down when I ask it to".

He geared up his 210 9 months later from a leaking hydraulic hose that was 30 years old.......

The 210 is faster than a toga, slower than a Bo I fly at 13.0 GPH at 150 Kts at 10k feet, my UL is 1,525lbs but 6 people is tight.

This is a good video on the 210 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xobT7Ux8TjE

Both John and Paul work on my 210 and they only do 182rgs or 210s (Paul does Cirrus now too). It is not a plane you can take to the random A&P/IA who works on a Cherokee, then V-tail, then 172 and then your 210.

If i had to choose between the 3 again, the Toga is appealing given the parts cost and maintenance cost, but you trade off speed. I couldn't afford then and definitely can;t afford now a Bo. Now that I invested what was necessary to ensure my gear will always go up and down, I wouldn't trade it for either.

Insurance is $,$$$ - I pay $3,600 per year but had a 75k insurance bill due to the plane being caught in a hailstorm on teh ground in Odessa, TX. Before that I paid $2,400 a year with 1,000 TT and 100 RG (no 210 time).

Keep the gear happy and the plane is fantastic.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2022, 16:16 
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Joined: 02/04/10
Posts: 1359
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Company: Northern Aviation, LLC
Aircraft: C45H, Aerostar, T28B
Three years ago I purchased a '77 straight tail Lance. I had never even sat in one before picking it up so all I had to go on was the observations of others: Slow, truck-like handling, etc. As is often the case, the reality is often a bit different.

After 600 hrs all I can say as I have been impressed, the Lance is a heck of an airplane. My use is a bit different, I use the plane as a flying pick-up between my two locations and every trip is loaded to the roof. This season the cargo count was 78,000# delivered; batteries, propane, conduit, bags of cement, beer, you name it.

For a 400NM point to point round trip, here are the numbers:
Average ground speed (Gear up to gear down) 152kts
Average fuel burn (9K average cruise altitude) 15.9ph
Average MPG: 9.57

My plane with the exception of the fin mounted beacon removed is totally stock, right down to the 2-blade propeller. Light I see 160kts or a bit more at 7-11K, heavy it's about 10kts less.

The nose baggage make CG a no-brainer even when the cargo of the day is a new truck engine or a couple drums of diesel exhaust fluid. Stuff it in and go, CG is never an issue.

As for flying qualities it's as simple as it gets, if you can't grease the landings in a Lance, you need to buy a boat... Take off is a bit different, due to the location of the main gear it requires more back pressure to lift the nose than to climb. If you are accustomed to a Cessna you will tend to over-rotate until you get the hang of it. Anyone that has flown a Cessna T303 will know what I'm talking about. One notch of flaps when heavy helps a lot. Light, just leave it clean and go. Truck-like? I suppose if you are comparing it to my Skybolt, but for a X-country airplane I like the inherent stability. Trim it and forget it.

The only other little airplane I have flown that will move stuff for a lower cost per lb/mi is the turbine Beech 18 (Volpar). Great plane, even has a bulletproof Lycoming, my only gripe is the cabin door on the co-pilot side...

Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2022, 16:30 
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Jeff, did you consider the T tail at all?


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2022, 18:04 
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Jeff, did you consider the T tail at all?

The T-tail has the advantage you can park under it, but that's about it. I never had an issues with how the T-tail Pipers handled, once you get accustomed to it, it's just another airplane.

On the downside, if you are someplace cold like I am cleaning the frost and snow off requires a ladder, and they are heavier due to the additional structure in the vertical. The UL on mine is 1550, just about what the C206 is, not too bad considering both are 3600# airplanes and the Lance is a retractable.

A number of the planes in this class get there impressive UL simply by raising the GW. This looks good on paper, but when they all come with 300hp on the nose the 4K birds tend to a bit sluggish on take-off and climb.

Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2022, 18:21 
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Joined: 03/22/18
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Location: DFW and SW PA
Aircraft: What's next?
Others have nailed it. I flew an owner's T Tailed Lance for few years, and Ron nails it. It's slow, hauls everything, and behaves exactly like you'd expect it to.

I found the T Tail flies just like the straight tail except on TO & LD - when the tail is done flying, it's done. However I have many fond flights to/from the Bahamas in the Lance.

My best buddy totally refurb'd a 210 and it flies very well. He bought it, pulled the gear doors off, refurb'd it and flew the heck out if it after I have him the insurance checkout. The
refurb was major because that's when all the issues were starting to surface. It flies pretty well... and that's what Cessna did well through their line... the 152, 172, 182, 210 and even the Caravan all "feel" similar (to an extent) to me...

LD traveler? I'd take a 210. All other missions I'd prefer the Piper.

_________________
Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle. — Abraham Lincoln


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2022, 18:41 
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Doug, why would you prefer the 210 for a long-distance traveler? Is it the speed difference?

I think if all other things were equal, SWMBO would prefer the 210 just because of the wing and the 2nd door. She likes to watch the scenery. I think I'm probably ambivalent about 2 doors and a high wing vs. barn doors in back and a low wing.

I am irrationally bothered by those barn doors being on the opposite side from the front door. Seems obnoxious to have to load the back on one side of the plane and then walk around to the other side to get in.

SWMBO's son is old enough to be planning for kids with his fiancée, and they live far enough away that the drive is really, really, really obnoxious. I'm hoping that grandkids will be a motivator for her to see the logic in buying a good traveling plane. For that trip, it's the difference between leisurely getting out the door in the morning and arriving for a late lunch and scurrying out the door to make it for dinner, but only if traffic is good. Traffic is never that good.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2022, 19:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
No experience in a 210 but I have over 200 hours in my straight tailed Lance. Here's some info that may shorten your interest or daydreaming about one;

The prices have increased to an almost eye-watering level over the past year. Although I got a great deal on mine, I could sell it for 3X what I paid for it within 24 hours. And I bought it just over 2 years ago.

The reason for this I believe is the sheer utility of it. It does a LOT of things well. No speed demon but it checks a lot of boxes that people seem to be interested in at this moment.

All planes have gone up in price lately but this one has really taken a leap.

Good luck with your research and if I can answer any questions about the Lance, let me know.


Eric, typically I cruise about 155k burning 15-16 GPH. Mine has the LoPresti cowl and every other "Speed" mod available for the airframe. The only thing that I would change about it would be to add AC (and of course a more modern panel). That said, every time I think about other planes (mostly twins) I have to ask, "What would I gain" and I come back down to earth and keep the Lance.
_________________
Ron

"It rubs the lotion on it's skin"


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 210 vs. Piper Lance/Saratoga
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2022, 20:17 
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Well there you go Eric, asking me a question that should earn a “analytical, left-brained” response and I don’t have one. I just “like” longer traveling in the 210 more than the Toga / Lance – and speed is only a part of it. I just can’t offer a better / more analytical answer.

I have always been a Piper guy. In the Ford v Chevy, Milk v Dark, Red v White, Ginger v Mary Ann grand scheme of things, I learned to fly low wing and I prefer Pipers over Cessna. A P210 was the first Cessna I had ever flown and I believe I was 200++ hours by then.

I still prefer Piper in nearly every category except training (I can make a better pilot in a 172 than a Cherokee), a P twin ('never a fan of the P Nav) and a I just like LD travelling in the 210 v the C-6 / Lance / Toga. The extra knots? Yup. Passengers like the 2nd door and visibility. But really the 210 is just my preference for over 400 miles and not loaded heavy. All other missions, I go back to being a Piper or Beech guy and take a Cherokee 6 / Toga / Lance over the 210.

So can I just say, “just because…”?

_________________
Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle. — Abraham Lincoln


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