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29 Mar 2024, 10:14 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2022, 14:13 
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FYI it has been designed to be refueled if we want to.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/ne ... space.html

The Lockmart page you linked didn't mention James Webb, does JW actually have the LockMart refueling port on it already? Even if it does, the L2 orbit doesn't sound like an easy place to send fuel to.

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2022, 15:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
FYI it has been designed to be refueled if we want to.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/ne ... space.html

The Lockmart page you linked didn't mention James Webb, does JW actually have the LockMart refueling port on it already? Even if it does, the L2 orbit doesn't sound like an easy place to send fuel to.

Probably matching the orbit to dock is the hardest part.
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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2022, 17:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
The Lockmart page you linked didn't mention James Webb, does JW actually have the LockMart refueling port on it already? Even if it does, the L2 orbit doesn't sound like an easy place to send fuel to.

Probably matching the orbit to dock is the hardest part.

Probably would use a lot of fuel.
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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2022, 18:48 
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It's at L2, orbit insertion burn worked great.

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2022, 19:30 
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Probably matching the orbit to dock is the hardest part.

Especially with the thruster blasts of the supply ship wrecking the sunshield.

After Webb proves out, they should build 3 or 4 more of them and amortize the development with much more data collected and having redundant units. Might even be able to build a telescope array with 4 of them at 90 degree orbit points for a huge baseline to measure distances to objects.

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2022, 19:46 
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Probably matching the orbit to dock is the hardest part.

After Webb proves out, they should build 3 or 4 more of them and amortize the development with much more data collected and having redundant units. Might even be able to build a telescope array with 4 of them at 90 degree orbit points for a huge baseline to measure distances to objects.

Mike C.

As incredible as the JWT is, it is already obsolete. Much of the electronics and computerization is decades old. They already have upgrades in the pipeline.

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2022, 22:07 
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Probably matching the orbit to dock is the hardest part.

Especially with the thruster blasts of the supply ship wrecking the sunshield.

I’m imagining very small thrusters on the approach side and a long grappling arm.
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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2022, 09:01 
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Here's NASA's visual of the flight path and orbit.
Attachment:
trajectoryMapping2.41-NoText-1800px.jpg

https://www.jwst.nasa.gov/content/webbL ... 1800px.jpg

and the animation of the orbit
[youtube]https://youtu.be/6cUe4oMk69E[/youtube]


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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2022, 09:55 
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As incredible as the JWT is, it is already obsolete. Much of the electronics and computerization is decades old. They already have upgrades in the pipeline.

It is not obsolete. Just being built not from the latest stuff isn't the same as being useless.

Even though it may have a 20 year useful life, that's not enough time for it to look everywhere it could. Everywhere it looks, it will discover something new.

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2022, 10:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
FYI it has been designed to be refueled if we want to.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/ne ... space.html

The Lockmart page you linked didn't mention James Webb, does JW actually have the LockMart refueling port on it already? Even if it does, the L2 orbit doesn't sound like an easy place to send fuel to.



the report I read about the Webb just said it was designed to be refueled. I assume with docking latches etc. when you look at the cost of putting a new satellite into orbit refueling the old one would be dramatically cheaper.

I heard the part of complexity of the Lockheed Martin system was that it was able to refuel satellites that were not designed to be refueled. they actually have a robot arm on it with grapples designed to grab the engine somehow and then maneuver the refueling nozzle into position.

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2022, 12:15 
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the report I read about the Webb just said it was designed to be refueled. I assume with docking latches etc. when you look at the cost of putting a new satellite into orbit refueling the old one would be dramatically cheaper.

I heard the part of complexity of the Lockheed Martin system was that it was able to refuel satellites that were not designed to be refueled. they actually have a robot arm on it with grapples designed to grab the engine somehow and then maneuver the refueling nozzle into position.

On-orbit refueling would save the cost of putting a new satellite up to replace an otherwise functional instrument, but it comes at the cost of the refueling vehicle and its launch system. So, you don't pay for, say, a new weather satellite, but you still have to launch the tanker sat. That cost, plus fuel, plus the cost of the tanker either to retrieve, or discard, offsets some of the cost of the replacement satellite. Is it dramatically less expensive? I think it depends a lot on the cost of the launch vehicle and tanker. If you can put a relatively small tanker sat on a Rocket Lab Electron or Firefly Alpha, then the savings could be dramatic.

Fueling a satellite that isn't designed for it sounds pretty impossible to me. Grabbing the recipient isn't the issue, it's the "maneuvering the refueling nozzle into position" part that I don't get. Exactly what position is that? You either have a refueling port or you don't. I can't imagine punching holes in the side of the satellite and pumping fuel and oxidizer in.

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2022, 13:30 
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Is it dramatically less expensive? I think it depends a lot on the cost of the launch vehicle and tanker.

Reusable rockets dramatically lowers cost of launch so the satellite dominates the total budget.

Arianne 5 launch cost: $185M.
Falcon 9 launch cost: $62M.

Webb telescope: $10B.

GPS satellite: $314M.

Comm/weather satellite: $300-500M.

Sending another satellite to refuel Webb is pennies on the dollar, especially if SpaceX does the launch.

Even for "mundane" satellites, on orbit refuel might make sense.

What might make even more sense are tanker sats that stay with the main satellite for long periods of time. They could have enormous fuel capacity, refuel the main sat tanks periodically, then when dry, undock, deorbit, next one comes up and docks. Alternatively, at EOL of main sat, the tanker sat can deorbit both of them together and reduce orbital junk.

Basically, this is what SpaceX does with cargo Dragon already, carrying supplies periodically, it just isn't sat fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2022, 13:52 
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My layman's view, gleaned from reading whatever I could,

The JWT was designed to be refueled, if the technology evolved to make that possible. But at the time of design (and launch) that has not happened yet. But it might happen soon.

The initial 10 yr estimated life span (due to fuel) has been increased to 20 years due to the great job the European rocket did lifting it to a good trajectory that required very little thruster use to steer it.

I just hope that mankind is around to use it to it's fullest without blowing ourselves up.


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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2022, 14:09 
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Seems like the "fuel" itself is a payload that could easily tolerate the extremely high g load of a rail gun launch. I wonder if some day fuel delivery sats will be resupplied with that method?

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2022, 14:43 
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Seems like the "fuel" itself is a payload that could easily tolerate the extremely high g load of a rail gun launch. I wonder if some day fuel delivery sats will be resupplied with that method?

Tell me how you rail gun something into orbit.

If you shoot it "up", it goes away from the planet and then falls back towards it.

If you shoot it "out", it goes horizontally through a lot of atmosphere and the drag prevents it from reaching escape velocity.

If it changes direction in mid flight, well, then that's not a rail gun any more, you need rocket engines.

Mike C.

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