banner
banner

19 Apr 2024, 03:24 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Aviation Fabricators (Top Banner)



Reply to topic  [ 423 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 29  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 14:39 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 12/24/09
Posts: 1116
Post Likes: +198
Company: Desert Air Inc.
Location: Phoenix, AZ (KDVT)
Aircraft: 1982 King Air 90
Username Protected wrote:
Interesting animation of Webb's orbit at L2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cUe4oM ... jAyMQ&t=6s

Dan


How do you get an object to orbit a point like that? I understand orbiting a body with mass, but an empty (and moving) point in space? Is it possible for a layperson to understand?


From NASA summary:
Lagrange points are positions in space where objects sent there tend to stay put. At Lagrange points, the gravitational pull of two large masses precisely equals the centripetal force required for a small object to move with them. These points in space can be used by spacecraft to reduce fuel consumption needed to remain in position.

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/ ... nge-point/
_________________
Rick Mishler
Desert Air, Inc.
Phoenix, AZ


Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 15:09 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 05/08/09
Posts: 7017
Post Likes: +4329
Location: Stuart, FL (KSUA)
Aircraft: 1967 Bonanza V35
It's celestial heaving to.

But with gravity. ;)


Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 15:23 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 05/11/12
Posts: 1318
Post Likes: +1006
Location: Katy, TX
Aircraft: Ex, M-20K
Username Protected wrote:
I understand orbiting a body with mass, but an empty (and moving) point in space? Is it possible for a layperson to understand?

An object at the L2 Lagrange point (or at any of the other 4 Lagrange points) is not orbiting that point, but rather orbiting the Sun-Earth system at or near that point.

L2 is dynamically unstable (as are L1 and L3)—the gravitational gradient appears as a broad saddleback, rather than a depression like L4 and L5—so any perturbation will grow, not dampen, but only small corrections are needed to keep an object within that area.


Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 15:30 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 08/20/13
Posts: 795
Post Likes: +541
Location: Benton Harbor, MI (KBEH)
Aircraft: 1958 Bonanza J35
L2 is a point where 2 gravitational pulls combine to help us:
1) With just solar pull, Webb would travel slower than the orbital rate (deg/sec) of the earth because it's in a larger orbit around the sun (like how Mars' orbital period is slower than earths because it's farther away).
2) If we just look at earth's pull, an object here would have a very slow orbit around the earth - very slow since it's so far away (less than one orbit per year). I'm not going to jump into the math here - that book is on my office desk.

When you combine both the solar and earths gravitational pull, the orbital period of an object at L2 is the same orbital period of earth - 1 year.

L2, if I remember correctly is slightly unstable, but manageable...

The moon adds to the computational fun of making these points work well.


Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 15:47 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 04/26/13
Posts: 19903
Post Likes: +19620
Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
A very big step complete. Merci Beaucoup Arianspace. I'll bet a lot of people down in Guyana are breathing easier right now.

But now comes the hardest part; unfolding the origami spacecraft successfully and getting it operational. There are so many steps, so many potential points of failure, no second chances. It's going to be a long month.

_________________
My last name rhymes with 'geese'.


Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 16:27 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/22/07
Posts: 12882
Post Likes: +13294
Company: Midwest Chemtrails, LLC
Location: KPTK (SE Michigan)
Aircraft: C205
Username Protected wrote:
I understand orbiting a body with mass, but an empty (and moving) point in space? Is it possible for a layperson to understand?

[youtube]https://youtu.be/7PHvDj4TDfM[/youtube]

_________________
Life is a DiY project.


Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 16:32 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/05/16
Posts: 3109
Post Likes: +2225
Company: Tack Mobile
Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
Username Protected wrote:
Interesting animation of Webb's orbit at L2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cUe4oM ... jAyMQ&t=6s

Dan


How do you get an object to orbit a point like that? I understand orbiting a body with mass, but an empty (and moving) point in space? Is it possible for a layperson to understand?


If I understand correctly Eric is asking how does the telescope orbit around L2, not how does it stay near L2, which I think is the question the previous responses are answering. I am interested as well.

Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 17:52 
Offline




User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 30697
Post Likes: +10717
Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
Username Protected wrote:
If I understand correctly Eric is asking how does the telescope orbit around L2, not how does it stay near L2, which I think is the question the previous responses are answering. I am interested as well.

It's the same thing. At L4 or L5 the gravitational and inertial forces combine to generate a pus towards the Lagrange point when an object is near that so even if something displaces it a little it will come back on it's own. At L2 the combined forces in the equatorial plane near the Lagrange point push away from the point but that force is very weak as long as you're close (and close is pretty far when you're a million miles from Earth) so it doesn't require much energy to remain in place even if you're deliberately offset from the center of the point a little.

_________________
-lance

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.


Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 20:38 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 03/28/17
Posts: 6678
Post Likes: +8018
Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
I'm pretty sure it listens to the dit-dah, dah-dit, and when it gets the aural null, it's in position. :D


Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 26 Dec 2021, 13:34 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/25/10
Posts: 5766
Post Likes: +3466
Company: Occasionally Pleasant
Location: Bourland Field 50F Cresson, TX
Aircraft: H35, C-172
Username Protected wrote:
I'm pretty sure it listens to the dit-dah, dah-dit, and when it gets the aural null, it's in position. :D

How many objects can occupy spots in these parking lots? Is there a protocol for positions?


Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 26 Dec 2021, 13:54 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 03/28/17
Posts: 6678
Post Likes: +8018
Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
Username Protected wrote:
I'm pretty sure it listens to the dit-dah, dah-dit, and when it gets the aural null, it's in position. :D

How many objects can occupy spots in these parking lots? Is there a protocol for positions?


Bob,

My comment was in jest, but your question is a good one. My space technology knowledge is very limited, but I would imagine that such operations are coordinated among the various space agencies around the world.

Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 26 Dec 2021, 14:59 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 05/01/12
Posts: 1073
Post Likes: +649
Location: Smith Mountain Lake VA W91
Aircraft: Ex 58P
By the way, why is there gravity? Seems like the whole universe operates on it


Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 26 Dec 2021, 18:11 
Online


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/31/12
Posts: 3094
Post Likes: +5447
Company: French major
Location: France
Aircraft: Ejet
According to general relativity, gravity is not so much a force (in the context of the fundamental forces of the standard model) as a curve in the spacetime influenced by the mass(es) of (an) object(s).
In my limited understanding, that's why the LHC was such a breakthrough: demonstrating the existence of the Higgs Boson (exactly where it was supposed to be). Part of the theory is that by moving through the Higgs field, it gives some fundamental particles their mass.

You say the universe operates on it, but it's actually the weakest of those forces. It's mostly relevant at larger scales.

_________________
Singham!


Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 26 Dec 2021, 19:41 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/06/08
Posts: 4697
Post Likes: +2703
Aircraft: B55 P2
Same for electro-weak force (which is mostly the electric and magnetic forces you are used to, but with the "weak" nuclear force added on - I mean who ordered that.

Then strong nuclear force.

Why 3 forces? Are they really just 1 force (the way electromagnetism and weak force used to be thought separate)?

I think physics is still in the "what" phase, not yet ready for "why" - if why actually has any meaning. Its certainly useful to have all 3 forces - without any of them we wouldn't be having this discussion - which brings up the horrors of the anthropoic principal.


Back to gravity: The general relativity explanation is that mass and energy distort spacetime and objects take the straightest like through it that they can.


Username Protected wrote:
By the way, why is there gravity? Seems like the whole universe operates on it


Top

 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 26 Dec 2021, 20:12 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/22/07
Posts: 12882
Post Likes: +13294
Company: Midwest Chemtrails, LLC
Location: KPTK (SE Michigan)
Aircraft: C205
[youtube]https://youtu.be/cp_7AJseYYc[/youtube]

_________________
Life is a DiY project.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 423 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 29  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.Marsh.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.AAI.jpg.
.puremedical-85x200.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.