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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021, 21:52 
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It is fantastically complex (thus the price tag) but not clear it could have done its job with less complexity.

The 10 year life may have a lot of conservationism in it. But it might also be intentional. Its very expensive (in ground crews) to keep a spacecraft running, so these days NASA likes them to fail hard (or dump them into Jupiter or Saturn).

A friend of mine worked on a small lunar probe and after a while they were told to crash it into the far side of the moon because of the fear that it might "run out of fuel and crash into the Apollo historic site). (NASA Planetary Protection are not the brightest bulbs in the agency....)


There is already talk (from the Astron 2020 decadal survey) of larger telescope https://asd.gsfc.nasa.gov/luvoir/
https://www.luvoirtelescope.org/

Its a good choice, even if it means the projects my group was developing electronics for (LYNX and Origins) won't fly. (or likely be scaled way back)






Username Protected wrote:
Extremely concerned about the ultra sophisticated complexity of this telescope. So many ways for it to fail during deployment.

Surprised to learn only a 10 year life due to limited quantities of maneuvering fuel, no method for replenishment.

I'm hoping for the best. We shall see.

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2021, 09:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
Extremely concerned about the ultra sophisticated complexity of this telescope.

I had the same reaction to all the wacky landers that we have sent to Mars!

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2021, 12:02 
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Stupid question, but won't the telescope be in earth's shadow at L2? What use will the solar panels have exactly?


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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2021, 12:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
Stupid question, but won't the telescope be in earth's shadow at L2? What use will the solar panels have exactly?


From NASA:

And Webb will orbit around L2, not sit stationary precisely at L2. Webb's orbit is represented in this screenshot from our deployment video (below), roughly to scale; it is actually similar in size to the Moon's orbit around the Earth! This orbit (which takes Webb about 6 months to complete once) keeps the telescope out of the shadows of both the Earth and Moon. Unlike Hubble, which goes in and out of Earth shadow every 90 minutes, Webb will have an unimpeded view that will allow science operations 24/7


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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2021, 12:46 
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Being lucky in believing something to be true doesn't count.

Actually, being "lucky" in publishing an idea first DOES count a lot.

Those people get Nobel prizes and have names like Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg, Fermi, Feynman, Higgs. Few of these collected the data used in creating their theories, and few did the experiments confirm their theories. They just had the "idea".

Science often advances by imagination, trying to figure out what the data means by proposing a theory. The ability to create a new theory is an amazing capacity of the human brain in a few select individuals.

Without theories, there would be no science.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2021, 13:29 
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Username Protected wrote:
Extremely concerned about the ultra sophisticated complexity of this telescope.

I had the same reaction to all the wacky landers that we have sent to Mars!


I did too but they were (and are) amazingly successful. The good thing about Webb is it doesn't have to do a controlled crash into a planet.

Dan

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2021, 13:41 
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But these were not theories in the absence of data . Einstein worked in relativity in a world where there was already surprising data - from the precession of Mercury's orbit to the Michelson Morley experiment. Without that unexplained data relativity would have been meaningless.

The theorists are rarely the ones doing experiments, but they almost always work in areas where there are unexplained experiments.

There are a lot of areas like that today - acceleration of the expansion of the universe. Dark matter. Uniformity of the universe. The mass of the Higgs. An lots of theorists working on it.

The place where it can seem unfair is that there is still guessing going on and someone gets lucky. Supersymmetry vs higher dimensions. There are theories of both that explain existing data. New data will show that at least one of those is wrong - but that doesn't mean whoever was right was "smarter" there is no way to know.

But your are right that the lucky one gets the Nobel.

Things have changed a bit in the last couple of decades. A lot of experiments (like JWST) have become very expensive, so political ability is now as important as scientific ability for overall success and there are not a low more theories than we can afford to test.




Username Protected wrote:
Being lucky in believing something to be true doesn't count.

Actually, being "lucky" in publishing an idea first DOES count a lot.

Those people get Nobel prizes and have names like Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg, Fermi, Feynman, Higgs. Few of these collected the data used in creating their theories, and few did the experiments confirm their theories. They just had the "idea".

Science often advances by imagination, trying to figure out what the data means by proposing a theory. The ability to create a new theory is an amazing capacity of the human brain in a few select individuals.

Without theories, there would be no science.

Mike C.


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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2021, 09:22 
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Received an email about this, live online event today 3pm that sounds interesting:

https://www.worldsciencefestival.com/pr ... he-cosmos/

Quote:
The powerful James Webb Space Telescope–the successor to the Hubble Space Telescope–promises insight into profound questions that have dogged philosophers and astronomers for millennia. What is the origin of the universe? How are stars and planets created? Is there life elsewhere in the universe? Brian Greene brings together four scientists who will use the Webb to investigate these very questions: John C. Mather, NASA’s lead scientist on the project and a Nobel Laureate; Natalie Batalha, NASA’s lead scientist on the Kepler Mission, which discovered the first rocky planets outside our solar system; Adam Riess, who earned a Nobel Prize for his revelations about the expansion rate of the universe; and Ewine van Dishoeck, a Kavli Laureate for her pioneering work in the field of astrochemistry.


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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2021, 14:21 
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Interesting animation of Webb's orbit at L2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cUe4oM ... jAyMQ&t=6s

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 09:23 
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It’s on the way!

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMiNW ... id=US%3Aen

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 09:38 
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Ariane V is such a beautiful rocket, and Kourou always incredible.
The reliability of Ariane V is getting pretty good, isn't it ;)

I'm supposed to go visit one of my former TRE in French Guyana, he says the launches are awesome with the (fairly hostile) background.

It's a very nice piece of equipment and it will, hopefully, bring some interesting data.

I just don't think it is up there with Crispr-Cas9 or the LHC. Here's hoping it works as well as those experiments. :pray:

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 09:50 
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Those solid boosters don’t fool around. Wow. Incredible acceleration of so much mass!


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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 10:02 
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Christmas Day is off to a nice start!

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 12:20 
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Here's the Where is Webb page, which shows its position, speed, distance to go, etc.

The page also has a timeline that highlights key events, including those to come.

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 Post subject: Re: James Web Telescope
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2021, 14:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
Interesting animation of Webb's orbit at L2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cUe4oM ... jAyMQ&t=6s

Dan


How do you get an object to orbit a point like that? I understand orbiting a body with mass, but an empty (and moving) point in space? Is it possible for a layperson to understand?


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