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28 Mar 2024, 15:57 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2021, 15:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
most of my trips are 500 NM or less.

A 200 knot airplane does that well.

When you get to 1000 nm trips, not so much.

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I also occasionally enjoy giving ATC the one finger salute and flying VFR below 17,500 to enjoy the country side.

You can do that with a turboprop, too, though it becomes less efficient. I have cruised at 16,000 ft to avoid monster headwinds (160 knots at FL240, down to 100 knots at 16,000). A ground speed of 200 knots is suffering in an MU2 but still making good progress, but the 421 guy should just stay home on those days.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2021, 15:26 
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Joined: 01/24/10
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Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
For headwinds I go as low as Necessary, 4,000 feet AGL STILL gives a respectable GS.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2021, 18:09 
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For the non turbine crowd, what is the SOAP?

Spectrographic Oil Analysis Program.

I've attached a recent result from my former TPE331 engines.



Mike C.


Mike, whose filling out your SOAP paperwork? Hours on oil does not look to be correct if your only changing at 900 hour intervals.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2021, 19:24 
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The double trim tab actuator on the 441 is because the FAA came out with an emergency AD in 1979 requiring the installation of the second actuator as the aircraft were shedding their tails during flight.



Generally I think we're saying the same things, although I maintain the best possible MX on both is more work on a piston. Just much more to do, oil changes, mags, injectors, valves, turbos/pressure controllers/wastegates, exhausts, baffles, etc.

The 441 tail fiasco is well described here: https://www.aviationconsumer.com/aircra ... -conquest/


I worked in Cessna Engineering on the 441 (not the tail, though) and noticed several FAA quotes in that article that I had never heard before.

I am of the opinion is that the difference in unscheduled maintenance between a pressurized twin piston and a pressurized twin turboprop is that the piston can nickle and dime you to death on such things as cylinders, turbos, exhaust systems, etc., while the turboprop does not (as much), but can be subject to some breathtaking costs at HSI, OH or engine/component failures if things do not go well.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 00:48 
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Joined: 08/05/16
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Company: Tack Mobile
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Aircraft: C441
Username Protected wrote:
I worked in Cessna Engineering on the 441 (not the tail, though) and noticed several FAA quotes in that article that I had never heard before.


Bill,

I’m so curious about that and the history of the airplane. Do you have any interesting stories about the 441 engineering process or design decisions?


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 10:19 
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Joined: 04/24/18
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Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
Username Protected wrote:
For the non turbine crowd, what is the SOAP?

Spectrographic Oil Analysis Program.

I've attached a recent result from my former TPE331 engines.

Compare the metal content versus a piston engine. Less than 1 ppm for everything, piston engines are often, say, 100 ppm for iron.

Turbine engines are not beating themselves up and rubbing a bunch of metal together at high pressure and temperature.

Mike C.

FIFY

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 10:59 
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Aircraft: Malibu PA46-310P
Does the MU2 have a potty? What is on the nose?
Kevin


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 11:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
Does the MU2 have a potty? What is on the nose?
Kevin


The long body AKA Marquise has a potty, yes. My short-body does not, but I use "porta-johns" :D

No clue what's on the nose on your pic, that's not normal.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 11:11 
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FLIR??


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 11:14 
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Joined: 12/29/10
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Username Protected wrote:
FLIR??


Looks like a FLIR to me. I have one on my King Air... It's great as a conversation starter ("Hey, what's that on your nose?") but otherwise kinda useless.

I guess if I were flying into rural strips at night a lot it would be useful, and its fun to use it on dark nights, but not something I would have paid to install.

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 11:21 
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FLIR is used by planes crossing the border at night and landing on unlighted dirt strips.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 11:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
FLIR is used by planes crossing the border at night and landing on unlighted dirt strips.



The border with Canada?


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 12:33 
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FLIR is used by planes crossing the border at night and landing on unlighted dirt strips.



The border with Canada?


Eh?

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 16:09 
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Company: Cessna (retired)
Username Protected wrote:
I worked in Cessna Engineering on the 441 (not the tail, though) and noticed several FAA quotes in that article that I had never heard before.


Bill,

I’m so curious about that and the history of the airplane. Do you have any interesting stories about the 441 engineering process or design decisions?


I was too junior to have much influence on design decisions, and major decisions such as engine selection were made before I started at Cessna. I was involved in the motive flow versus electric boost pump decision. During the initial design, my boss recommended against motive flow due to additional complication and additional fuel plumbing in the engine compartment fire zone. We revisited the issue later in production, did some tests and found an issue with small power/EGT increase when the motive flow was shut off, as would be done for crossfeed. We did not proceed further as this might complicate existing issues with fuel control operation and hot section durability. Interestingly enough, everybody said that Citations did not do this, but then Flight Test went to specifically look for this and found it.
Another interesting story is that once a prop pitch control was changed and the shipping gasket was left if place, disabling NTS. When Flight Test shut down that engine in flight, they had a pretty wild ride, proving the benefits of NTS.
When the predecessor piston 431 was cancelled, a lot of drawings with the same series designation were left in the system without being obsoleted and it was significant effort to get everything cleaned up.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2021, 16:12 
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When the predecessor piston 431 was cancelled, a lot of drawings with the same series designation were left in the system without being obsoleted and it was significant effort to get everything cleaned up.


What was the 431? A pressurized 404? I've always said that would have been a great airplane!


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