When I first flew in a Malibu I was an agile 195# 6’2” 20-something and don’t remember any disatisfation with the size of the cockpit. 15 years later when I was looking to purchase a Meridian as a stiff 220# 6’2” 40-something it was a tighter fit than I remembered. But, the value proposition compelled me to persevere. I’ve now had the Meridian for 3 years and I’m not getting any smaller. I have no problems getting into the pilot seat and no discomfort on 3 hour legs. Would I like a larger cockpit? Sure. Would I pay another $500k for a larger cockpit? No way.

Hmm, my wallet was very thin, and yet I bought an MU2 and had plenty of room.

6'2". I take it I might be tight for a Meridian.

I had extended seat tracks installed in the MU2. Turns out I use what would have been the last factory notch anyway, so not technically necessary. But the longer seat tracks make it nicer for right seat passengers so they can slide back further and be out of the yoke.

Mike C.

I can't afford to own a 421 if the above is true. The cost per mile is astronomical.

An MU2 would be CLEARLY cheaper per mile!

300 knots will change you life in a way that 200 knots just doesn't. The Meridian is in between.

Mike C.

The double trim tab actuator on the 441 is because the FAA came out with an emergency AD in 1979 requiring the installation of the second actuator as the aircraft were shedding their tails during flight.

Having purchase, operated and maintained a corporate 421C and a 441 a few years ago, and currently own a 414 I can tell you the besides the obvious reliability differences in the engines is that the 441's are typically maintained to a higher standard than the piston series. We've all heard the "I maintain my 4XX with an open checkbook" song and dance, but the reality is there is a difference in maintenance of an aircraft with an "open checkbook" and one that's on a full maintenance program. Based on my observations when purchasing the 441, about 90% of them in the US is on Cessna's (SID) maintenance program (that's pretty much a 135 equivalent program), a few are on the Bacon program, and the remainder are on a 135 AAIP program. The engines are on Garrett's engine schedule typically.

Unless you bought a piston 4XX on a 135 AAIP and kept maintaining it in that fashion, I would assume that about 90% of the piston aircraft are maintained on an annual inspection basis. It's easy to say that an annual inspection will encompass everything that the SID program program does, but spend some time looking through the SID's on a piston 4XX and you'll soon realize that very few are maintained to that level.

Now, with that in mind, if you take a equally maintained piston 4XX and a 425/441, you will see very little difference in dispatch reliability. Stuff will break on a turbine aircraft, just as it does on a piston airplane. Yes, as Mike (or someone) mentioned above, reduced vibration reduces some maintenance, I doubt in the "short term" you will notice a difference. By "short term," I mean <5000 hour of use.

I informally figured that about 130 hours/year on a piston 4XX was about the break even point to start looking at a 441. I don't have clear numbers of the cost as the final numbers that I seen were for fully managed 421C/441, but the cost per hour crossed at about 130-140 hours in our case. They were running around $1000/hr at the 130 hour/year mark for each aircraft.

Insurance, training, hangar and landing fees were all higher for the 441. Insurance doubled a couple years ago. Training wasn't much of a consideration in the 421C as both of us pilots just received a IPC annually. I charged about 40% more for the hangar, but the hangar was build for and an upgrade for the customer. Landing fees seemed to be about double for the 441 on average at our destinations. Fuel per hour was about 25% more in the 441, but over a long trip was about equal costs due to the higher cruise speeds. Short trips were significantly more in the 441.

That's my $2 worth (with inflation)...

Jason

Generally I think we're saying the same things, although I maintain the best possible MX on both is more work on a piston. Just much more to do, oil changes, mags, injectors, valves, turbos/pressure controllers/wastegates, exhausts, baffles, etc.

The 441 tail fiasco is well described here: https://www.aviationconsumer.com/aircra ... -conquest/

Yea, but you don't get away from maintenance just because it's a turbine. You'll still have SOAP samples (with crazy higher prices), inspections based on hours, oil changes (longer intervals, similar per hour price), etc.... I wouldn't say that the engine maintenance was significantly less time on the 331, just difference maintenance required. However, there was generally less surprises between scheduled maintenance with the 331.

Comparing a piston 4XX airframe and a 441 airframe will be similar if maintained the same, which as I said, very few are.

Yea, but you don't get away from maintenance just because it's a turbine. You'll still have SOAP samples (with crazy higher prices), inspections based on hours, oil changes (longer intervals, similar per hour price), etc.... I wouldn't say that the engine maintenance was significantly less time on the 331, just difference maintenance required. However, there was generally less surprises between scheduled maintenance with the 331.

Comparing a piston 4XX airframe and a 441 airframe will be similar if maintained the same, which as I said, very few are.

If you are 6' or more tall and in a Meridian I've found comfort really matters in how torso tall you are. I had found the legroom more than adequate for my height, but at 6'3" there was no way to not hit my head on the roof with my headset. I ended up getting a modified seat cushion that gave me an extra 2" of headroom at the expense of seat comfort and that made a world of difference to me. My headset would still hit if I turned my head left without ducking, but the rest felt very roomie. I honestly didn't really notice the seat comfort since at most we'd be sitting in it for ~3 hours.

I think I'm pretty symmetrical for legs/torso, but my 5'9" cousin is all torso, like he sits inches over me when we sit next to each other but his feet dangle off the seat....no joke.
Not a great fit for the Meridian. So if any 6'+ people are looking at a meridian, just pull the bottom seat cushion up and it will come out and put something slimmer there temporarily and see how that feels.

Chuck would know better than me, but there is a year where the seats came from the factory and are now able to slide the seat back over the spar which added inches of legroom.

Chip-

421C: oil changes every 50 hours, about $250 per engine, parts and labor. $5 per hour. Doesn't count owner provided oil between changes.

441: oil changes every 900 hours, about $350 per engine, parts and labor. $0.40 per hour. I only had one in 13 years of ownership. I never added oil.

Doesn't seem similar to me.


Seemed very different to me.

No exhaust check, no spark plugs to clean, no mags to time, no air filter to check, no compression check to do, etc.

My SOAP kits were $287/each, typically covered 100 hours, so $3/hour/engine. SOAP kits included a filter. Still, kind of expensive for what it is.

Nozzle cleaning is about every 300 hours, cost me $400 per engine (Jet Air Group in Green Bay).

The two biggest routine engine things were SOAP and nozzle cleaning every ~300 hours. Both add up to less than $5 per hour per engine.

Outside of that, almost nothing to do.

If someone is charging you the same cost to routinely maintain a TPE331 as a GTSIO-520, you are being robbed.

Mike C.

For the basic 2/3/D inspection, it was around $6k plus parts. Add in another $2k for RVSM every two years and other miscellaneous inspections and I still don't think you'll be close to that.

When we purchased this airplane, WestJet (GJT) had the paperwork screwed up and there were approximately 15 inspections that were two years overdue. Our bill was $65k plus another $22k for both prop overhauls. The second year, the inspections were $23k and 2/3/D were repeated in the interest of not moving the airplane to the shop 50 hours later. I did not see bills after that we I turned over management to the full time pilot that they hired as my request.

Mike, SOAP samples (831043-3) are about $500 each today unless you know of a good source that's still holding on to the old prices...., so $5/hour/engine, or the same as an oil change on the 421C...

Last year my shop charged me $184 for SOAP on my Conquest I. Vendor is Avlab. The kits themselves were $36 each and then the shop added some labor and shipping.

For the non turbine crowd, what is the SOAP?
Kevin

In June, I paid $287.34 for each engine SOAP kit.


SOAP and oil change are not the same thing.

Are you doing SOAP on the 421C?

Also, you get 50% more miles per hour on the TPE331 aircraft, so the cost per mile is reduced.

When you work it out, cost per mile to fly TPE331 is less than GTSIO-520. This includes fuel, routine maintenance, and overhauls.

Mike C.

Spectrographic Oil Analysis Program.

I've attached a recent result from my former TPE331 engines.

Compare the metal content versus a piston engine. Less than 1 ppm for everything, piston engines are often, say, 100 ppm for iron.

Turbine engines are beating themselves up and rubbing a bunch of metal together at high pressure and temperature.

Mike C.

I have flown my 421C all over North America and in the last 2300 hours I have never canceled a trip because of a mechanical issue.

I fly it 150 hours a year and most of my trips are 500 NM or less. When I was hauling my whole family it was great, lots of room ,comfortable , quite and my wife loves having a potty. On a 300 NM TRIP the time difference between a TBM850 and my 421 is 15 minutes.

I am a real 6’ 2” and 225 pounds. I am not as limber as I used to be and that was an issue with the Meridian. If I bought a Meridian my chiropractor would make a lot of money off me. I have other planes I fly so when my 421C sits neglected in the hangar my maintenance expenses don’t continue while I sleep.

A 421C is like a wife, nothing better than a good one and nothing worse than a bad one.
If you choose carefully with a knowledgeable person helping and have a excellent 421C shop close by they are great family suburbans.

I also occasionally enjoy giving ATC the one finger salute and flying VFR below 17,500 to enjoy the country side.