25 Apr 2024, 02:23 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian Posted: 12 Nov 2021, 16:16 |
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Joined: 02/09/09 Posts: 5599 Post Likes: +2559 Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
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Username Protected wrote: When you work it out, cost per mile to fly TPE331 is less than GTSIO-520. This includes fuel, routine maintenance, and overhauls. I would agree with that, depending on how many miles you flew a year.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian Posted: 12 Nov 2021, 16:32 |
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Joined: 11/15/17 Posts: 688 Post Likes: +351 Company: Cessna (retired)
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Username Protected wrote: When the predecessor piston 431 was cancelled, a lot of drawings with the same series designation were left in the system without being obsoleted and it was significant effort to get everything cleaned up. What was the 431? A pressurized 404? I've always said that would have been a great airplane!
It could either be viewed as a pressurized 404 or a piston 441, with significant differences in either case. It had 435 hp GTSIO's (only other use was Commander 685), which were its downfall.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian Posted: 12 Nov 2021, 21:42 |
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Joined: 07/06/14 Posts: 3014 Post Likes: +1995 Location: MA
Aircraft: Cessna 340A
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Username Protected wrote: What was the 431? A pressurized 404? I've always said that would have been a great airplane! It could either be viewed as a pressurized 404 or a piston 441, with significant differences in either case. It had 435 hp GTSIO's (only other use was Commander 685), which were its downfall.
I can recommend "Cessna Wings for the World", by William Thompson, Volume III is about the development of the 400 Series. I found it on Spruce or Sportys a few years ago. Sounds like Bill could add more insights.
It describes the 431 is a predecessor to both the 404 and 441; lessons learned were applied to both of those aircraft. It flew in 1973. They were looking for 435 or even 450 hp from the GTSIO-520. Target was 300mph, higher critical altitude, 5psi pressurization. The book describes a couple deficiencies that killed it: they used 5* wing twist to improve power-off stall behavior, but this was a detriment to cruise performance. Power-on stall behavior was not acceptable and the P-factor on the right engine could not be overcome. Rather than continue development, the lessons were rolled into other planes (404, 441), and they focused on continued refinement of the 421.
They also describe the 435, which was a 441 with PT6 engines. But this got canned when the rest of the development stopped in the 80s.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian Posted: 13 Nov 2021, 01:42 |
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Joined: 08/05/16 Posts: 3110 Post Likes: +2226 Company: Tack Mobile Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
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Username Protected wrote: It could either be viewed as a pressurized 404 or a piston 441, with significant differences in either case. It had 435 hp GTSIO's (only other use was Commander 685), which were its downfall. I can recommend "Cessna Wings for the World", by William Thompson, Volume III is about the development of the 400 Series. I found it on Spruce or Sportys a few years ago. Sounds like Bill could add more insights. They also describe the 435, which was a 441 with PT6 engines. But this got canned when the rest of the development stopped in the 80s.
I can’t find that book for sale anywhere, any thoughts on where I might find a copy?
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian Posted: 13 Nov 2021, 10:16 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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I have the complete set, Cessna: Wings for the World, I, II, and III, signed by Bill Thompson himself. My brother got them for me 22 years ago and knew Bill. Lots of fascinating stories and history. We tend to know about only the actual products that made it to market and not about the prototypes and other programs that never did. Another rich source of information is a DVD video called "Cessna: A Master's Expression". This was apparently produced by Cessna and then never fully distributed or promoted. My brother's 140 makes a brief appearance in the video. You can find copies on eBay. It deals a lot with the early history of almost all the major aircraft brands and how interconnected they were in the early days. Some little know facts: Cessna made a helicopter. Attachment: US_Army_Cessna_CH-1.jpg Cessna made furniture. Attachment: 1940s-1950s-Cessna-Aircraft-mid-century-modern-long.jpg There was a Cessna 620, double a 310, a four engine piston business airplane. Attachment: Cessna_620_(4590370750).jpg Cessna made a prototype called "Experimental Magic Carpet", or XMC, a pusher design that would be an LSA today. Attachment: 1qfIN0L8N4QtcYH6kJSOe0jdyIVOlTk2psYWrl55m9E.jpg Mike C.
Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian Posted: 13 Nov 2021, 10:50 |
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Joined: 11/07/11 Posts: 723 Post Likes: +412 Location: KBED, KCRE
Aircraft: Phenom 100
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Username Protected wrote: Cessna made a prototype called "Experimental Magic Carpet", or XMC, a pusher design that would be an LSA today. Attachment: 1qfIN0L8N4QtcYH6kJSOe0jdyIVOlTk2psYWrl55m9E.jpg Mike C. A flying car Chip-
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian Posted: 13 Nov 2021, 12:29 |
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Joined: 11/15/17 Posts: 688 Post Likes: +351 Company: Cessna (retired)
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Username Protected wrote: I have the complete set, Cessna: Wings for the World, I, II, and III, signed by Bill Thompson himself. My brother got them for me 22 years ago and knew Bill. Lots of fascinating stories and history. We tend to know about only the actual products that made it to market and not about the prototypes and other programs that never did. Another rich source of information is a DVD video called "Cessna: A Master's Expression". This was apparently produced by Cessna and then never fully distributed or promoted. My brother's 140 makes a brief appearance in the video. You can find copies on eBay. It deals a lot with the early history of almost all the major aircraft brands and how interconnected they were in the early days. Some little know facts: Cessna made a helicopter. Attachment: US_Army_Cessna_CH-1.jpg Cessna made furniture. Attachment: 1940s-1950s-Cessna-Aircraft-mid-century-modern-long.jpg There was a Cessna 620, double a 310, a four engine piston business airplane. Attachment: Cessna_620_(4590370750).jpg Cessna made a prototype called "Experimental Magic Carpet", or XMC, a pusher design that would be an LSA today. Attachment: 1qfIN0L8N4QtcYH6kJSOe0jdyIVOlTk2psYWrl55m9E.jpg Mike C. I wondered if you were related to Phil, but never got around to asking. Another little known fact: when Cessna shut down propeller production, they also made pizza pans for a while. Don't think they got rich doing it. Somebody mentioned the 435 a few posts ago. I worked on that one too. Besides the state of the economy, it didn't meet performance projections, which were based on the 441 and failed to take into account fatter nacelles, exhaust stubs, oil cooling, etc. It was known going in that high altitude performance would be less with the PT6 (135 variants) than the Garretts.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 421C vs Piper Meridian Posted: 13 Nov 2021, 13:10 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I wondered if you were related to Phil, but never got around to asking. Half of all the people named Ciholas in the USA have pilot licenses. The other 2 are my parents. Quote: Another little known fact: when Cessna shut down propeller production, they also made pizza pans for a while. Don't think they got rich doing it. The pizza pans might have been more profitable than the props, though. Quote: Somebody mentioned the 435 a few posts ago. I worked on that one too. Besides the state of the economy, it didn't meet performance projections, which were based on the 441 and failed to take into account fatter nacelles, exhaust stubs, oil cooling, etc. It was known going in that high altitude performance would be less with the PT6 (135 variants) than the Garretts. Per Thompson's book, the 435 was a 441 with PT6-116 engines of 635 HP. Basically a drop for the TPE331-8 engines the 441 had in terms of power. It did have nacelle baggage lockers. something the 441 cold never have. Performance: FL180: 285 knots FL350: 258 knots In most all ways the 435 underperformed the 441. The PT6 engine is just not as aerodynamically efficient to mount on the wing and it burns more fuel. With less speed and more fuel burn, range suffered. The two areas the 435 won was lower noise and appeal to PT6 snobs. Otherwise, it was a lesser airplane than the 441. The 441 is really an awesome plane. I just couldn't afford one when I was buying the MU2. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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