19 Apr 2024, 07:22 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421 Posted: 21 Sep 2021, 06:10 |
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Joined: 01/05/11 Posts: 314 Post Likes: +226
Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
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Nothing in aviation is ever inexpensive. “Pay me now or pay me later,” but, you will pay me. The law of aviation ownership that will always be challenged, but, never broken. Aviation Physics: Nothing is cheap. Everything is expensive. Always and forever.
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Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421 Posted: 21 Sep 2021, 08:22 |
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Joined: 08/22/12 Posts: 518 Post Likes: +270
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Hey James- yeah- we really considered the MU2 when we got the 421 but the tip tanks prevented it from fitting in our hangar which was a dealbreaker for us since one partner is our AP and needs space to work. But I’m betting it would have been less expensive this past year. Just a guess of course. As others have said, the laws of aviation…. And it really comes down to mission. Last few years we were flying frequently and hard IFR in the Great Lakes area during winter. That is just not the case anymore. The smart answer for the next few years will likely be to just stick with my trusty old bonanza.
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Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421 Posted: 21 Sep 2021, 10:05 |
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Joined: 05/17/11 Posts: 1761 Post Likes: +1084 Location: KFRG
Aircraft: 421C
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Username Protected wrote: If you buy junk with deferred MX AND maintain it to low standards then yes it’s expensive.
Parts are not hard to get and the average maintenance for a PBaron , Duke or 421C are about the same.
I have thousands of hours in my 421C and NEVER had a AOG. Same here Gerald. I'm over 400hrs in my 421 and never had an AOG. Stay on top of normal maintenance items and the plane will reward you with reliable service.
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Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421 Posted: 21 Sep 2021, 15:57 |
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Joined: 05/31/13 Posts: 1235 Post Likes: +602 Company: Docking Drawer Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
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Quote: The faster turbine airplane is not as costly to fly as it may appear True, especially now when there seems to be a bigger disparity between the cost of 100LL and Jet-A. I used FF to run a sample 296nm trip from SF - LA in a 421 and a 425. Assumptions: - I used Jack's actual MX numbers over his 6 year period, including his painful first year. I used my actual numbers including my first painful year (actually my 2nd, but I threw out the 1st year because it was a partial and artificially low). We've both owned our planes for about the same amount of time and both use tier 1 shops. We both fix everything that breaks. - Foreflight default performance numbers, no wind. - Fuel prices at KCCR for the trip, assuming CAA discount for Jet-A. - I only looked at fuel and MX costs since insurance, hangar, etc can vary a lot depending on location, experience, etc. But fuel and MX are the bulk of the opex costs. Conclusion: both planes had identical MX and fuel costs for the 296nm trip. Capex is a different story of course and you almost can't buy a decent conquest now. Only 6 listed on controller and many are junk high time planes.
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_________________ ATP, CFI-I, MEI http://www.dockingdrawer.com
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Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421 Posted: 21 Sep 2021, 16:03 |
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Joined: 11/06/13 Posts: 404 Post Likes: +247 Location: KFTW-Fort Worth Meacham
Aircraft: C208B, AL18-115
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MC,
Your comments on the future 100LL resonate with me. I have a assumed that turbo-charged engines would suffer more from the loss of 100LL than normally aspirated ones. I had also assumed that UL fuel may cause some piston engine to be de-rated to give larger detonation margins. For most turbo-charged piston aircraft, there is not lot of hp that can be given up and still have adequate performance.
Now, the engineers may be cringing at my statements because I am just an ex-lawyer with a history degree. I would hope that someone would set me straight.
Ed
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Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421 Posted: 21 Sep 2021, 16:05 |
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Joined: 12/29/10 Posts: 2556 Post Likes: +2217 Location: Dallas, TX (KADS & KJWY)
Aircraft: T28B,7GCBC,E90
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I had a 421C for 6 years, and my hourly operating costs averaged around $750/hour.
I think my King Air (E90) ends up being about the same on a per hour basis and cheaper on a per mile basis since it's a bit faster. While the King Air maintenance isn't cheap, so far it's been on par with the 421 except that there significantly less required between annuals (ok, for you purists, "Phase Inspections" on the turbine).
My gut is that a King Air operated at 150-200 hours a year (the 200 top end being so that you can combine 2 phases into one event and it looks more like an annual inspection) will be cost wise pretty similar to a 421.
I also don't think a PBaron, 414, 340, Duke, or whatever, will be significantly different to operate (ie it's not a 421 specific issue - Just an issue with big, complex, capable piston airplanes).
Robert
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Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421 Posted: 21 Sep 2021, 17:08 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I had a 421C for 6 years, and my hourly operating costs averaged around $750/hour. Over 13 years, my MU2 averaged about that, maybe a touch less around $700/hour. This includes hangar, insurance, fuel, maintenance, fees. The MU2 goes 300 knots. That makes the cost per mile less than the 421C. To be fair, the environment you operate in has a big influence on costs. The MU2 operated under the same circumstances as Robert may be more expensive than it was for me. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421 Posted: 22 Sep 2021, 10:26 |
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Joined: 05/08/13 Posts: 441 Post Likes: +230 Company: Citation Jet Exchange Location: St. Louis
Aircraft: 58P C510 C525 Excel
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I recently upgraded to a 58P. For years I debated between the 58P and the 340. After having owned two 310s in the past 2 years, I decided to change brands. The 310R and L both nickel and dimed me, something broke after nearly every flight. The 58P has been expensive in fixing numerous squawks from the past owner, but there have only been maybe 1-2 new squawks that have popped up in 60+ hours of flying.
What's my next plane? I'm not sure, I don't think there are any larger piston twins I'd like. I manage a fleet of citations (525 and 510), and honestly they usually come in less annually in maintenance than the 414/421 maintenance figures listed earlier in this thread and other posts. Especially the mustang, it is incredibly reliable and economical to operate, some years matching my 310s maintenance bills.
I plan on keeping the 58P for a long time (as everyone says), but I'll probably do a 3 way partnership on the Mustang when the time comes.
_________________ The Citation Jet Exchange www.CitationJetX.com CJs, Mustangs, Excels
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Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421 Posted: 22 Sep 2021, 11:46 |
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Joined: 05/31/13 Posts: 1235 Post Likes: +602 Company: Docking Drawer Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
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Corey, if you owned a Mustang for 4 years would would the annual MX look like per year? I assume it's on an engine program right? What does that cost?
_________________ ATP, CFI-I, MEI http://www.dockingdrawer.com
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