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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 06:10 
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Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
Nothing in aviation is ever inexpensive. “Pay me now or pay me later,” but, you will pay me. The law of aviation ownership that will always be challenged, but, never broken.
Aviation Physics: Nothing is cheap. Everything is expensive. Always and forever.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 08:22 
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Hey James- yeah- we really considered the MU2 when we got the 421 but the tip tanks prevented it from fitting in our hangar which was a dealbreaker for us since one partner is our AP and needs space to work. But I’m betting it would have been less expensive this past year. Just a guess of course. As others have said, the laws of aviation….
And it really comes down to mission. Last few years we were flying frequently and hard IFR in the Great Lakes area during winter. That is just not the case anymore. The smart answer for the next few years will likely be to just stick with my trusty old bonanza.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 10:05 
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Location: KFRG
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If you buy junk with deferred MX AND maintain it to low standards then yes it’s expensive.

Parts are not hard to get and the average maintenance for a PBaron , Duke or 421C are about the same.

I have thousands of hours in my 421C and NEVER had a AOG.


Same here Gerald. I'm over 400hrs in my 421 and never had an AOG. Stay on top of normal maintenance items and the plane will reward you with reliable service.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 11:16 
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Joined: 01/24/10
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Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
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Some times having a partner that is an A/P will make things worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 11:25 
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Joined: 07/10/10
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Location: New Braunfels, TX
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I owned a 414A for a few years before my Conquest.

In my experience, something was always broken. It seemed like it would go to the shop after every long trip.

$800 to $1000 an hour is about right.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 12:21 
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Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
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The first two years usually have the highest expenses.

The first annual should fix everything and the second annual should expose everything that needs to be replaced for long term reliability.

These first two annuals are not cheap if everything is fixed. Partnerships or owners on a shoestring budget will have a problem.

Hourly operating cost also depends on the number of hours you fly. For 100 hours per year 600 to 700 per hour for “all expenses” is the national average.

One of the Premier Conquest shops on the west coast is near to me and I visit frequently.
The shop is always full of 425 Conquests and the operating expenses for a Turbine are eye watering. MU2’S EXCLUDED.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 12:38 
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Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Guy,

We've averaged $33,192 per year in maintenance for 160 average hours.
First year was the highest at 54k.
So overall average maintenance has been $207/hr over 6.5 years.
That doesn't include any upgrades.

All of our annuals and the majority of in between maintenance has been done at TAS or Fortner (what some people refer to as high $ shops, I disagree).

We are very involved in maintenance planning/decision making and do our own oil changes and minor stuff.

The first three years were frustrating and it seemed like something broke about every trip. The last three years have been much better. If something needs attention we work it in with an exhaust inspection or whatnot. I'm seeing only two unplanned shop visits over the last three years.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 12:56 
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Location: Tampa, FL (KVDF)
Aircraft: 1984 Bonanza A36TN
I was speaking with the parts guy at a Beechcraft shop and he was telling me some stories about how difficult it is getting to find P-Baron parts.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 12:57 
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
The 421 is the nicest traveling airplane burning 100LL in my opinion.

I almost bought one.

The cost per mile is not trivial, though. One has to account for headwinds when making those comparisons, which is often not done. The faster turbine airplane is not as costly to fly as it may appear.

I also worry a lot about the future of 100LL. There are recent events which make that more of a risk than ever before.

Lead was used as leverage to close KRHV. I think they banned 100LL sales on the airport, too. This may set off a wave of similar actions elsewhere.

The last country where leaded auto gas was legal, Algeria, just banned it. This created a flurry of news reports about the ending of auto leaded gas worldwide, except all the articles had to say that aviation still uses it. This heightened awareness has emboldened anti lead advocates in the US to seek to ban 100LL, the last leaded fuel in the world.

The future of 100LL is more at risk than it has been and the GTSIO-520 definitely needs it.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 15:57 
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Joined: 05/31/13
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Company: Docking Drawer
Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
Quote:
The faster turbine airplane is not as costly to fly as it may appear

True, especially now when there seems to be a bigger disparity between the cost of 100LL and Jet-A. I used FF to run a sample 296nm trip from SF - LA in a 421 and a 425. Assumptions:

- I used Jack's actual MX numbers over his 6 year period, including his painful first year. I used my actual numbers including my first painful year (actually my 2nd, but I threw out the 1st year because it was a partial and artificially low). We've both owned our planes for about the same amount of time and both use tier 1 shops. We both fix everything that breaks.

- Foreflight default performance numbers, no wind.

- Fuel prices at KCCR for the trip, assuming CAA discount for Jet-A.

- I only looked at fuel and MX costs since insurance, hangar, etc can vary a lot depending on location, experience, etc. But fuel and MX are the bulk of the opex costs.

Conclusion: both planes had identical MX and fuel costs for the 296nm trip. Capex is a different story of course and you almost can't buy a decent conquest now. Only 6 listed on controller and many are junk high time planes.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 16:03 
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Joined: 11/06/13
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Location: KFTW-Fort Worth Meacham
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MC,

Your comments on the future 100LL resonate with me. I have a assumed that turbo-charged engines would suffer more from the loss of 100LL than normally aspirated ones. I had also assumed that UL fuel may cause some piston engine to be de-rated to give larger detonation margins. For most turbo-charged piston aircraft, there is not lot of hp that can be given up and still have adequate performance.

Now, the engineers may be cringing at my statements because I am just an ex-lawyer with a history degree. I would hope that someone would set me straight.

Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 16:05 
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Joined: 12/29/10
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Location: Dallas, TX (KADS & KJWY)
Aircraft: T28B,7GCBC,E90
I had a 421C for 6 years, and my hourly operating costs averaged around $750/hour.

I think my King Air (E90) ends up being about the same on a per hour basis and cheaper on a per mile basis since it's a bit faster. While the King Air maintenance isn't cheap, so far it's been on par with the 421 except that there significantly less required between annuals (ok, for you purists, "Phase Inspections" on the turbine).

My gut is that a King Air operated at 150-200 hours a year (the 200 top end being so that you can combine 2 phases into one event and it looks more like an annual inspection) will be cost wise pretty similar to a 421.

I also don't think a PBaron, 414, 340, Duke, or whatever, will be significantly different to operate (ie it's not a 421 specific issue - Just an issue with big, complex, capable piston airplanes).

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2021, 17:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
I had a 421C for 6 years, and my hourly operating costs averaged around $750/hour.

Over 13 years, my MU2 averaged about that, maybe a touch less around $700/hour.

This includes hangar, insurance, fuel, maintenance, fees.

The MU2 goes 300 knots. That makes the cost per mile less than the 421C.

To be fair, the environment you operate in has a big influence on costs. The MU2 operated under the same circumstances as Robert may be more expensive than it was for me.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 10:26 
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Joined: 05/08/13
Posts: 437
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Company: Citation Jet Exchange
Location: St. Louis
Aircraft: 58P C510 C525 Excel
I recently upgraded to a 58P. For years I debated between the 58P and the 340. After having owned two 310s in the past 2 years, I decided to change brands. The 310R and L both nickel and dimed me, something broke after nearly every flight. The 58P has been expensive in fixing numerous squawks from the past owner, but there have only been maybe 1-2 new squawks that have popped up in 60+ hours of flying.

What's my next plane? I'm not sure, I don't think there are any larger piston twins I'd like. I manage a fleet of citations (525 and 510), and honestly they usually come in less annually in maintenance than the 414/421 maintenance figures listed earlier in this thread and other posts. Especially the mustang, it is incredibly reliable and economical to operate, some years matching my 310s maintenance bills.

I plan on keeping the 58P for a long time (as everyone says), but I'll probably do a 3 way partnership on the Mustang when the time comes.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 11:46 
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Joined: 05/31/13
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Company: Docking Drawer
Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
Corey, if you owned a Mustang for 4 years would would the annual MX look like per year? I assume it's on an engine program right? What does that cost?

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