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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 12:00 
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If you are asking whether a fleet if 50 p-barons will be less than a fleet of 50 421’s over 5 years, yes they will

If you are asking will a specific p-baron be meaningfully cheaper than your current 421 … maybe. But really if you want something notably and reliably cheaper than a 421, it’s a Malibu or a Bonanza.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 15:58 
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Corey, if you owned a Mustang for 4 years would would the annual MX look like per year? I assume it's on an engine program right? What does that cost?


Hi Scott, I have a detailed post floating around here somewhere on it. A good average we've seen is about $25k annually in mx, not including the engine programs. If the engines have more than 1000 hours the cost is $324/hr combined with a 150/hr year min commitment. This is the one thing to me is unrealistic in my current financial status.

We were on proparts for the first 3 years, which I advised against, and was a huge waste. We've been off for 18 months and had no issues. It depends which cycle of inspections are due, the 3 and 6 year items are a bit more expensive. We had a 3 year, 6 year, 12 month, 24 month and a few others all come up in Dec 2019 and our all in cost was about $34k. 2020 our total bill for residual inspections was just around $2500 and nothing else broke. Aside from scheduled maintenance we've seen maybe one or 2 unexpected items break per year that cost $2k-5k each to fix.

I'm happy to share our maintenance bills and cheat sheet of inspections with clients who might hire us as a broker.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 16:21 
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Location: Findlay, Ohio
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I'm also in the market for a 421 but as someone mentioned with the 425, a nice well maintained 421 is proving hard to find. I have always been very intrigued by the citation mustang but it doesn't provide the space and useful capability the 421 does (at least not officially). I really wish these companies would come back to the piston twin market but as many have pointed out, the 100LL issue will continue to push the market more towards Jet-A burners.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 17:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
[Citation costs] A good average we've seen is about $25k annually in mx, not including the engine programs. If the engines have more than 1000 hours the cost is $324/hr combined with a 150/hr year min commitment. This is the one thing to me is unrealistic in my current financial status.

Avoid the Williams tax, get a legacy Citation instead.

Definitely more money to operate than a 421, MU2, 425, etc. but also definitely more useful.

Not all that much money to buy, say a 501SP.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 18:39 
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Get a 501. P Baron requires significantly more maintenance than a legacy Citation and is 125kts slower.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 22:19 
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The cost of maintaining an older plane is not a crapshoot, it's more like backgammon, a mix of luck and skill. Enough of each that those who stay within their budget credit their smart management and those who don't blame bad luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 23:11 
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The cost of maintaining an older plane is not a crapshoot, it's more like backgammon, a mix of luck and skill. Enough of each that those who stay within their budget credit their smart management and those who don't blame bad luck.

One of the things I am learning about jets is that MOST owners maintain them with a hands off, service center is best, replace parts until it is fixed, I want it as good as new attitude. This is why they have a reputation for being expensive to maintain and why the parts and service programs are very expensive.

If you applied that philosophy to maintaining a 421, look out. Can you imagine what a Textron service center would do to the average 421? I doubt you could get out for less than $100K on a typical annual.

But the reverse is also true. If you are willing to get involved, find good independent shops, shop carefully for parts, and do appropriate fault isolation, you can save a ton on maintenance.

Another thing is that I am on an extended inspection program that allows me to fly 3 years between basic inspections (phase 1-4) and 6 years between major ones (phase 5). That is a huge benefit in cost and downtime.

You can't really model turbine ownership as turbine repair costs times piston break down frequency. It just doesn't work that way. Turbine airplanes just don't break very often.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 23:57 
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Some times having a partner that is an A/P will make things worse.


:stir:


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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2021, 13:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Avoid the Williams tax, get a legacy Citation instead.

The Mustang has P&W engines. Do they also have the equivalent of the “Williams tax”?

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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2021, 20:51 
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Avoid the Williams tax, get a legacy Citation instead.

The Mustang has P&W engines. Do they also have the equivalent of the “Williams tax”?


The Mustang's PW engines can be worked on by shops other than PW (unlike Williams) There are multiple options for engine programs such as JSSI, ESP but the most common is through Cessna's Power Advantage. You can self insure and not be shaken down like Williams from I have read through 2nd hand info. The costs are identical to the Williams programs as of 2021.
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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2021, 22:49 
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The Mustang's PW engines can be worked on by shops other than PW (unlike Williams) There are multiple options for engine programs such as JSSI, ESP but the most common is through Cessna's Power Advantage. You can self insure and not be shaken down like Williams from I have read through 2nd hand info. The costs are identical to the Williams programs as of 2021.

How does the PW engine compare to the Williams as far as specific fuel consumption? I know it's a different size, but wondering if PW can now go head-to-head with Williams performance-wise, i.e. if they scaled up the Mustang engine (I know the PW625F demonstrator engine was larger).

Also, how do these engine programs work when you're off-program and want to go back on program? Is that a big no-no or do they allow it but charge a stiff penalty?

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 Post subject: Re: Advice pls- ownership costs p baron VS 421
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2021, 17:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
The Mustang's PW engines can be worked on by shops other than PW (unlike Williams) There are multiple options for engine programs such as JSSI, ESP but the most common is through Cessna's Power Advantage. You can self insure and not be shaken down like Williams from I have read through 2nd hand info. The costs are identical to the Williams programs as of 2021.

How does the PW engine compare to the Williams as far as specific fuel consumption? I know it's a different size, but wondering if PW can now go head-to-head with Williams performance-wise, i.e. if they scaled up the Mustang engine (I know the PW625F demonstrator engine was larger).

Also, how do these engine programs work when you're off-program and want to go back on program? Is that a big no-no or do they allow it but charge a stiff penalty?


The specific fuel consumption question is beyond my scope. I think the best way would be takeoff fuel flow vs rated thrust, which I don't have those numbers handy. Cruise fuel flows between similar aircraft will not be helpful as they are different weights, volumes etc.

The Phenom 100 has similar engines to the Mustang and similar in size to the CJ/M2. My experience flying the Phenom 100 is 10+ years old but I recall it being a little slower than the CJ and slightly more efficient. It is a quiet a bit slower than the M2 albeit less fuel burn. I'm not current on the upgrades since then 100E etc.

I read through our contract for Power Advantage+ and it looks like there is a $25k enrollment fee for any of the plans. I presume you pay the hourly rate for the current amount of hours you have. I've heard of this being popular on the XLS models to negate the risk near overhaul time.
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