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29 Nov 2021, 02:22 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2021, 10:13 
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Do you think yours naturally match that nicely or did the mechanics trim the indications to make them match like that? I always figured engines were like kids, they are all just a little different no matter how similarly they are raised. In any case, I'd think that you would want to match RPM and Torque which will give identical HP on each wing and then describe the differences in the engine performance as fuel flow and temp, not match RPM and temps and describe the differences as torque and fuel flow.

Pretty much as Mike said.

The only caveat is that at overhaul I believe there is some compensation measurement that allows the temp to go through some kind of compensation device. But… I think it’s all calibrated on the test stand and shipped with the engine.

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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2021, 10:36 
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I know there are not too many 441 pilots out there but I'm hoping for some help. Are these engine indications normal in a 441 (or any TPE-331-10)? Also what speeds are to be expected with the -10? With the different STCs, props, VGs, winglets, etc. it's hard to know what normal or good is.

And to answer your question, I have no idea why they left the packing film on the screens for two years. Glare was awful.


Easiest way to determined matched power is to:
1. set SRL desired torques-tq and rpm/props in sync at cruise, smooth, no bumps,
2. autopilot set to heading mode, with rudder indicator centered,
3. if the airplane is in bank or wheel is NOT level see below. If ball centered/wheel level, you are matched.

If ball needs trim or wheel not level:
1.try adjusting tq to level wheel, small adjustments OK. Check with mtc how much split throttles are allowed. I remember 1" max but may be off.
2. After tq is set to level the wheel, minor rudder trim adjust may be ok.
3. Note the tq split and use for later flights. If I remember right, mtc can adjust SRL to bring up low engine a certain amount using screw X.

You're now matched tq, and in trim as it should be.

BTW, this is also the way we checked matched power on the B777 in Production Flight Test while I was at Boeing.

Cheers, James


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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2021, 10:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
If ball centered/wheel level, you are matched.

Rigging and leveling need to be checked first so that errors in those areas aren't affecting the test.

If there are concerns about the torque calibration, there is a test called the "Lebow" which mounts a test prop with torque sensors. The engine is run and you get a measured torque to compare to your gauges. You then calibrate the gauges to those readings.

This is the only way to be really sure your torque gauges are reading accurately.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2021, 19:37 
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You’re a short hop to West Star at Grand Junction. I’d make an appointment. Joe Carr was the Conquest technician I dealt with. This was many years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 21:36 
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You’re a short hop to West Star at Grand Junction. I’d make an appointment. Joe Carr was the Conquest technician I dealt with. This was many years ago.


It’s there now for prebuy. I think the engines have about 1000 hrs on them since overhaul, the one pilot since then ran everything pushed up to the firewall from takeoff until he needed to pull them back for landing, which I’ve been told is fine (?).

Sounds like the split is not normal, or at least indicative of something not working optimally. Is there anything to be done now apart from a borescope (happening next week)?


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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 21:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
I agree with Michael. If you raised the fuel flow on the left to match the right the torque increase would most likely match but the EGT would be above where you want to be so that tells you that the left engine runs hotter for a given power setting. That would point to the hot section.


This seems most likely to me as well, would this show up in a borescope? One engine did eat a bird, I think it was in fact the left. They replaced everything that was damaged, or so they said.


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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 23:18 
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the one pilot since then ran everything pushed up to the firewall from takeoff until he needed to pull them back for landing, which I’ve been told is fine (?).

The 441 TPE331 has some sort of electronic engine control. So this *may* be "fine" in the sense the engine wasn't operated above limits. But it probably means the engine WAS operate at limits all the time which is not good for longevity.

In a TPE331 without electronic engine control, like -1, -5, -6, -10 on MU2s, firewall throttle settings usually result in overtemp and/or overtorque and very expensive repair bills soon follow.

Quote:
Sounds like the split is not normal, or at least indicative of something not working optimally. Is there anything to be done now apart from a borescope (happening next week)?

Any decent TPE331 shop will do ground runs which will uncover any serious engine issues. By noting the temperatures on the ground run sheet, they will be able to tell you if the engine is sick or not.

I would also ask for a borescope. A friend of mine did that to an MU2 to find the first stage turbine wheel was swiss cheese. The roto cause was a pilot who firewalled it a lot of the time. My friend passed on that one and later we found out it took $150K to hot section both engines and restore proper function.

The -10N engine in the 441 is more robust than most engines, especially if it has a late model burner can.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2021, 23:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
A friend of mine did that to an MU2 to find the first stage turbine wheel was swiss cheese. The roto cause was a pilot who firewalled it a lot of the time. My friend passed on that one and later we found out it took $150K to hot section both engines and restore proper function.

Mike C.

Two hots for a buck fifty? Heck of a deal.
Was that a while ago?

And if you ask just about any TPE shop I assure you it will be condemned as a sick motor and sent for a peek inside… and it won’t be 150k!

Hope it’s just a sensing / indication problem and not EOTW.
TJ

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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2021, 00:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
Any decent TPE331 shop will do ground runs which will uncover any serious engine issues. By noting the temperatures on the ground run sheet, they will be able to tell you if the engine is sick or not.

I would also ask for a borescope. A friend of mine did that to an MU2 to find the first stage turbine wheel was swiss cheese. The roto cause was a pilot who firewalled it a lot of the time. My friend passed on that one and later we found out it took $150K to hot section both engines and restore proper function.

The -10N engine in the 441 is more robust than most engines, especially if it has a late model burner can.

Mike C.


They are doing a borescope and ground runs but the egt on the display comes from the computer (which is a fadec light, I think Garrett uses the term PADEC or something similar) and isn’t the actual temp which is part of my concern. We’re off a solid 15+ knots from book (from the -10 STC) which if it was a piston I wouldn’t flinch at but for a turbine on a relatively recent STC I would expect much closer numbers. This is a top shop so my hope is they will catch anything.


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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2021, 01:17 
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We’re off a solid 15+ knots from book (from the -10 STC) which if it was a piston I wouldn’t flinch at but for a turbine on a relatively recent STC I would expect much closer numbers. This is a top shop so my hope is they will catch anything.


Your first picture shows 300 KTAS at >ISA+10 and FL320. There’s nothing wrong with that airplane.

That rigging is close enough that I would not let anyone play with it unless you are extremely OCD and have cash to burn. Match the torques, set power by the highest EGT and go fly it.

I’ve never heard the term PADEC or FEDEC used with a 331 in all of the flying and teaching that I did.


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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2021, 02:45 
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We’re off a solid 15+ knots from book (from the -10 STC) which if it was a piston I wouldn’t flinch at but for a turbine on a relatively recent STC I would expect much closer numbers. This is a top shop so my hope is they will catch anything.


Your first picture shows 300 KTAS at >ISA+10 and FL320. There’s nothing wrong with that airplane.

That rigging is close enough that I would not let anyone play with it unless you are extremely OCD and have cash to burn. Match the torques, set power by the highest EGT and go fly it.

I’ve never heard the term PADEC or FEDEC used with a 331 in all of the flying and teaching that I did.


That is at 100% rpm, I think it was 12-13 knots slower at 96% which is well off of book, are the book numbers that optimistic? If torque was matched speeds would be lower

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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2021, 08:26 
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John,

Just curious who did the EI install? Also was 99+ % RPM just for troubleshooting or is that their regular procedure?

Re: split, as you probably already know, unlike other popular 331 GA applications, a 441 has an EEC which has some interesting failure modes that can try to kill you. I’m just a fan, not an expert but any indication could be lying to you. I would guess EGT and a probably a combo of other issues since the high fuel flow correlates with higher TQ and a 50 lb FF split at that altitude is unacceptable and could lead to damage due to a pilot flying way overtemp all the time due to a low egt reading. A shop that knows and has the rigging tools for the 441 is a must. They will have seen this before. No way I’d accept the plane without figuring it out. Usually on pre-buys if I see problems like this I will do an airspeed check using GPS and provide Mx with photos of the panel with various parameters matched and also do that at an intermediate altitude for good measure. What does the book show for TQ and FF at the temp?


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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2021, 08:47 
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It’s there now for prebuy. I think the engines have about 1000 hrs on them since overhaul, the one pilot since then ran everything pushed up to the firewall from takeoff until he needed to pull them back for landing, which I’ve been told is fine (?).

I don't know about being fine. The SLR is described here and doesn't not provide for temp and torque limiting. It's not a fadec motor.
"The SRL does not provide for auto TTL.
A common misconception is that the SRL can do anything, including automatic torque and turbine temperature limiting. Except for the SRL-conditioned EGT signal, a generic TTL (Torque and/or Temperature Limiter), when installed, functions independently from the SRL system. Consequently, the pilot must monitor EGT and torque limits and manually prevent either exceedance by adjusting the power lever as required."


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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2021, 08:51 
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It’s there now for prebuy. I think the engines have about 1000 hrs on them since overhaul, the one pilot since then ran everything pushed up to the firewall from takeoff until he needed to pull them back for landing, which I’ve been told is fine (?).

I don't know about being fine. The SLR is described here and doesn't not provide for temp and torque limiting. It's not a fadec motor.
"The SRL does not provide for auto TTL.
A common misconception is that the SRL can do anything, including automatic torque and turbine temperature limiting. Except for the SRL-conditioned EGT signal, a generic TTL (Torque and/or Temperature Limiter), when installed, functions independently from the SRL system. Consequently, the pilot must monitor EGT and torque limits and manually prevent either exceedance by adjusting the power lever as required."


The computer automatically limits both torque and temp in this engine.


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 Post subject: Re: 441 Conquest II Torque split
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2021, 11:15 
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It is neither a FADEC or PADEC since the computer is analog, not digital.

Torque and Temperature Limiting was optional, but I think everybody took it. It has to be functional and turned on, however.

IIRC, there is a separate delta P/P box that is necessary for SRL.

I agree with the above on a good shop.


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