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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 09:44 
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Username Protected wrote:

If the boss wants to go Houston to Hawaii non-stop, Gulfstream V it is. I don't see any realistic scenario where a Sovereign or X is going to do that non-stop.


Doubtful that the 680 or 750 could do Hawaii without a wet footprint, even from California.


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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 10:14 
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Username Protected wrote:

If the boss wants to go Houston to Hawaii non-stop, Gulfstream V it is. I don't see any realistic scenario where a Sovereign or X is going to do that non-stop.


Doubtful that the 680 or 750 could do Hawaii without a wet footprint, even from California.

I was under the impression it's possible, but maybe it's a little tight. SFO-HNL is 2,084nm; a 680 or 750 should be able to do at least 3,000nm with IFR reserves. Worst-case scenario would probably be losing pressurization and having to descend to FL 150 mid-way. Let's say 1,100nm to get to dry land. They would still have 2/3 their fuel, but if nm/lb goes down by more than a factor of two, that could be interesting. And there are probably some regulations I'm not aware of.

Better bring big O2 bottles for the passengers (like 3 hours worth) and keep it up high, if that's even legal.
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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 10:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
I was under the impression it's possible, but maybe it's a little tight. SFO-HNL is 2,084nm; a 680 or 750 should be able to do at least 3,000nm with IFR reserves. Worst-case scenario would probably be losing pressurization and having to descend to FL 150 mid-way. Let's say 1,100nm to get to dry land. They would still have 2/3 their fuel, but if nm/lb goes down by more than a factor of two, that could be interesting. And there are probably some regulations I'm not aware of.

Better bring big O2 bottles for the passengers (like 3 hours worth) and keep it up high, if that's even legal.


I don't have any exact numbers, but I have heard anecdotally that both airplanes aren't great Hawaiian airplanes.


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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 10:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
I was under the impression it's possible, but maybe it's a little tight. SFO-HNL is 2,084nm; a 680 or 750 should be able to do at least 3,000nm with IFR reserves. Worst-case scenario would probably be losing pressurization and having to descend to FL 150 mid-way. Let's say 1,100nm to get to dry land. They would still have 2/3 their fuel, but if nm/lb goes down by more than a factor of two, that could be interesting. And there are probably some regulations I'm not aware of.

Better bring big O2 bottles for the passengers (like 3 hours worth) and keep it up high, if that's even legal.


I don't have any exact numbers, but I have heard anecdotally that both airplanes aren't great Hawaiian airplanes.

And I didn't even factor in winds...

Edit: found this:
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=m ... 2bdd3bbb1c

However, this is engine out at 25,000 feet. Pressurization scenario not addressed.

And here's a Gulfstream V that went from Burbank to Maui. But it flew over the SFO area first. To minimize the wet footprint? https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/ ... /KBUR/PHOG
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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 16:51 
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Interesting... using Skyvector...

KLAX PHNL (La to Honolulu)
At the half way point you are:
1020nm to KSBP
1024nm to Hilo

So the 1022 half way requirement makes sense...
Also seems like loss of pressurization would be a bigger deal than loss of an engine.

Any kind of uncontained engine failure that caused both engine failure and loss of pressurization would be pucker inducing.


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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 17:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
Interesting... using Skyvector...

KLAX PHNL (La to Honolulu)
At the half way point you are:
1020nm to KSBP
1024nm to Hilo

So the 1022 half way requirement makes sense...
Also seems like loss of pressurization would be a bigger deal than loss of an engine.

Any kind of uncontained engine failure that caused both engine failure and loss of pressurization would be pucker inducing.

I heard that ETOPS rules had to be modified because they had not previously considered that scenario, but I'm not sure.

Some jets will actually get better mileage with one engine shut down when flying at lower altitudes.

Still not clear why that Gulfstream passed near SFO on the way to Hawaii. Per this ETOPS map, it makes little difference in exposure and flying direct would have meant more fuel available. Maybe they want planes on a standard route for traffic and/or SAR reasons?


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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 17:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
Interesting... using Skyvector...

KLAX PHNL (La to Honolulu)
At the half way point you are:
1020nm to KSBP
1024nm to Hilo

So the 1022 half way requirement makes sense...
Also seems like loss of pressurization would be a bigger deal than loss of an engine.

Any kind of uncontained engine failure that caused both engine failure and loss of pressurization would be pucker inducing.


Actually the "half way point" isn't the geographical half way point, but the "equal time point" where it's equal time to continue or turn back, factoring in winds, and on a twin a one engine out ETP has to be calculated, plus a low level ETP for loss of pressurization.

Because of the prevailing westerly winds, the ETP will be geographically closer to HNL than LAX or SFO. Factoring in the low level requirement generally results in the highest required fuel for flight planning.

On a flight from Houston to HNL over SFO in order to cut down on the total required reserve fuel the flight plan is broken down into two legs Houston to SFO, and SFO to HNL
That way the required reserve for SFO to HNL is controlling and when the plane has that reserve over SFO, the re-release flight plan , SFO to HNL is activated. The airlines do this all the time to cut down fuel tankering.


Last edited on 05 Sep 2021, 17:44, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 17:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
Interesting... using Skyvector...

KLAX PHNL (La to Honolulu)
At the half way point you are:
1020nm to KSBP
1024nm to Hilo

So the 1022 half way requirement makes sense...
Also seems like loss of pressurization would be a bigger deal than loss of an engine.

Any kind of uncontained engine failure that caused both engine failure and loss of pressurization would be pucker inducing.


Actually the "half way point" isn't the geographical half way point, but the "equal time point" where it's equal time to continue or turn back, factoring in winds, and on a twin a one engine out ETP has to be calculated, plus a low level ETP for loss of pressurization.

Because of the prevailing westerly winds, the ETP will be geographically closer to HNL than LAX or SFO. Factoring in the low level requirement generally results in the highest required fuel for flight planning.

Paul, don't you need enough oxygen for the passengers for three hours or whatever the ETOPS (I think now it's called EDTO) time period is?

That's a lot of oxygen unless you use oxygen generators.
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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 17:52 
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Ian,


As I recall, there only needs to be enough pax O2 to get down to 14,000 feet from cruise altitude in an emergency descent; 4 minutes I think, or 30 minutes of oxygen for 10% of the passengers.


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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 20:32 
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The ETOPS fuel protection envelope incorporates the simultaneous loss of pressurization and one engine.

I don't think part 91 aircraft have to comply with ETOPS requirements.


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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 22:09 
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But for clarity, i'm not the pilot. I'm one of the guys in the back. I've flown right seat a few times.

That's the best seat in the house!

Outside of looking at the fit and finish of a demo bird, and no time in the air, that's about all I can comment. The paint was immaculate. The Embrarer that I saw a few years back had a vinyl sticker on top of the clearcoat. The PC-24 was pure paint and clearcoat with no vinyl stickers. It was gorgeous and the interior was comfy.

A friend's company bought a PC-24 and he didn't note any disappointment with it as a pilot or passenger. Granted, he operates a few PC-12s and Citations so he is brand P and brand C but not Brand E. We did joke about whether or not it could get into Newlon in Huntington but a low approach and aborted landing would be about all it could do before popping up to HTS.


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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 22:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
But for clarity, i'm not the pilot. I'm one of the guys in the back. I've flown right seat a few times.

That's the best seat in the house!

Outside of looking at the fit and finish of a demo bird, and no time in the air, that's about all I can comment. The paint was immaculate. The Embrarer that I saw a few years back had a vinyl sticker on top of the clearcoat. The PC-24 was pure paint and clearcoat with no vinyl stickers. It was gorgeous and the interior was comfy.

A friend's company bought a PC-24 and he didn't note any disappointment with it as a pilot or passenger. Granted, he operates a few PC-12s and Citations so he is brand P and brand C but not Brand E. We did joke about whether or not it could get into Newlon in Huntington but a low approach and aborted landing would be about all it could do before popping up to HTS.

Maybe Pilatus will offer drop tanks so it can make it to Hawaii.
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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 22:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
Doubtful that the 680 or 750 could do Hawaii without a wet footprint, even from California.

680 can. Textron specifically analyzed this for engine failure at worst possible point and making landfall within 180 minutes.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=m ... 2bdd3bbb1c

The 680 can do some long range flights, like 2865 nm discussed here:

https://investor.textron.com/news/news- ... fault.aspx

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 06 Sep 2021, 02:25 
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Doubtful that the 680 or 750 could do Hawaii without a wet footprint, even from California.

680 can. Textron specifically analyzed this for engine failure at worst possible point and making landfall within 180 minutes.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=m ... 2bdd3bbb1c

The 680 can do some long range flights, like 2865 nm discussed here:

https://investor.textron.com/news/news- ... fault.aspx

Mike C.

The first article mentions a cruise altitude of 25,000 feet if an engine is lost.

No mention of loss of pressurization. I hope everyone has a three hour supply of oxygen.
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 Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24
PostPosted: 06 Sep 2021, 06:55 
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If the boss wants to go Houston to Hawaii non-stop, Gulfstream V it is. I don't see any realistic scenario where a Sovereign or X is going to do that non-stop.


The G-V is an amazing business jet, has a seemingly reasonable acquisition cost if $10M+/- 10% is reasonable for a 20-ish year old aircraft. They have great factory service as well as non-factory service options and support old and new aircraft.

The G-V, or any other intercontinental business jet, is not an inexpensive aircraft to operate. If you operate the aircraft 400-500 hours a year, that is around 35AMU trip to Hawaii without the parking fees or pilots' rooms. The trip back is going to be a smidge cheaper but still more than a new Accord with all the bells and whistles. With that many hours it's about $2.5M to operate for 400-500 hours and the jet brokers could give you better numbers.

You will also see quite a few Falcon 50s on the routes coming out of California. ...but the G-V will give your boss what they want and more!

Expectations you all will have a buyer's agency representing your interests.


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