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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 02:07 
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Yes and I've done that as well. Obviously the wx needs to cooperate. Even if just the destination is IFR I won't cancel as I know that asking for a pop-up at 3k' from McGuire is probably gonna cough up any efficiency I gained by canceling.

Israel, I imagine you stay with Flight Following? Does ATC ever request you to maintain certain altitudes/headings when you are VFR as a "favor" to them?

I was just watching a video of a guy flying a jet VFR at around 13,500 in southern California and he got screamed at by ATC for not getting FF earlier (I suspect because they wanted to vector him around IFR traffic rather than vice-versa).


I'm generally always on ff. Even flying piston singles. Atc is generally accommodating after I cancel. They understand what I'm trying to do and they also understand that if I get pushed around too much, I'm cancelling ff. If there's a traffic conflict I'll get a slight vector but at 300kts it's not a big deal. And let's not forget that part of the reason I'm on ff is for help with traffic avoidance.
Generally speaking I find that atc tries to be accommodating overall, however their standard MO seems to be to keep GA traffic below the airliners on the arrivals as they don't want to have to worry about us descending (divebombing for max efficiency) through the airliner arrivals.

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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 02:29 
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If you vector such aircraft significantly, then they may stop contacting you altogether. Did that improve safety?

Was thinking the same thing, plus not a good idea to yell at pilots and potentially disturb their concentration/state of mind like this guy:

https://youtu.be/uwYfk3vPCp0&t=9m5s

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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 06:10 
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And it’s easier to move the one airplane that shouldn’t be there

Can you define what "shouldn't be there" means? Is the VFR plane operating illegally? If not, why do you consider inappropriate for it to fly in that airspace?

If you vector such aircraft significantly, then they may stop contacting you altogether. Did that improve safety?

Sometimes planes fly VFR because ATC is less accommodating. If ATC keeps doing that, more aircraft will fly VFR silently. Maybe the right strategy is trying to make things LESS annoying to talk to you rather than more and that would improve safety more than shoving jets down to a few thousand feet 100 miles from destination. That may create fewer VFR blips out of contact zooming through your airspace.

If we can find more efficient and accommodating ways to handle the traffic, it improves things for everybody. Less flight time, less fuel burn, less carbon, less noise, more safety.

Mike C.


exactly, and thank you. ATC in some areas acts as if VFR FF is a privilege that we are lucky to have. I'm throwing the BS flag on that one. If they don't want me over the top (Chicago is a great example), then make the top of the B at FL180.

in fairness, I am willing to take small vectors or altitude deviations. but when they give me "expect on course in 30 miles..." nope. I have as much right to the airpsace as the 121 guys.
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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 08:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
And it’s easier to move the one airplane that shouldn’t be there

Can you define what "shouldn't be there" means? Is the VFR plane operating illegally? If not, why do you consider inappropriate for it to fly in that airspace?

If you vector such aircraft significantly, then they may stop contacting you altogether. Did that improve safety?

Sometimes planes fly VFR because ATC is less accommodating. If ATC keeps doing that, more aircraft will fly VFR silently. Maybe the right strategy is trying to make things LESS annoying to talk to you rather than more and that would improve safety more than shoving jets down to a few thousand feet 100 miles from destination. That may create fewer VFR blips out of contact zooming through your airspace.

If we can find more efficient and accommodating ways to handle the traffic, it improves things for everybody. Less flight time, less fuel burn, less carbon, less noise, more safety.

Mike C.


By “shouldn’t be there”, I don’t mean illegally. More so mean an aircraft operating in a high density airspace at a bad spot. Example, skirting the DFW Bravo airspace NE of TKI at 075-085. You’re not doing anything illegal being there, but you are at a higher risk being there. If I’m talking to this traffic I may vector them 5-10 miles wider than they want for safety reasons. If I’m not, it can be a headache.

I don’t disagree with you about significant vectors and them not calling me anymore. That’s definitely adding risk to the operation. It’s kind of a double edged sword. I want to talk to that plane, and I’ll do the best I can to not vector you out of your way, but I have to consider the safety and efficiency of all the other planes I’m working. Someone will be getting moved. Do I move all the planes on the SIDS/STARS for the one VFR on flight following? Or do I move the one VFR and allow all the SIDS/STARS to operate as normal?

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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 08:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
If they don't want me over the top (Chicago is a great example), then make the top of the B at FL180.

The "solution" in many parts of the world is to start class A airspace at low altitude.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 09:05 
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[/quote]exactly, and thank you. ATC in some areas acts as if VFR FF is a privilege that we are lucky to have. I'm throwing the BS flag on that one. If they don't want me over the top (Chicago is a great example), then make the top of the B at FL180.

in fairness, I am willing to take small vectors or altitude deviations. but when they give me "expect on course in 30 miles..." nope. I have as much right to the airpsace as the 121 guys.[/quote]


VFR FF is given on a workload basis. If you’re talking to 20+ IFRs, chances are you don’t have time to safely work someone on FF. There’s good and bad ways to take planes over the top of busy airspace. Can’t speak for Chicago, but I do know how to route planes over/around DFW. Your altitude depends on where you go. Work with me and I’ll work with you the best I can.

I understand the frustrations with it.


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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 09:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Do I move all the planes on the SIDS/STARS for the one VFR on flight following?

That is what you have to do when they don't call you. And because you don't know their intentions, you have to give them more space.

So it is in your interest to be helpful to them when they do call or they won't.

That's my point.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 09:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
Do I move all the planes on the SIDS/STARS for the one VFR on flight following?

That is what you have to do when they don't call you. And because you don't know their intentions, you have to give them more space.

So it is in your interest to be helpful to them when they do call or they won't.

That's my point.

Mike C.



I completely get your point. You’re not wrong. And I try to be as helpful as I can, but not everyone can get their way.

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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 09:58 
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I completely get your point. You’re not wrong. And I try to be as helpful as I can, but not everyone can get their way.

Exactly.

If VFR traffic impedes ATC’s high traffic arrival and departure routes excessively we may as well just expect Class Bravo and Charlie airspace to continue to grow.

So we can either work together or they can force us to get approval by adapting their airspace to their needs.

Either way ATC controls the playing field.

I learned to fly in the shadow of Chicago Class Bravo and have spent the last 37 years dealing with Los Angeles Class Bravo regularly.

I try to go along to get along. Yes, sometimes I’ve been vectored ridiculous amounts.

Is ATC doing this to irritate me? No. They are tasked with the orderly flow of traffic and are dealing with it as best they can.

While no single aircraft’s “right” to airspace may exceed any others, if there are 30 aircraft in a row lined up on an inbound arrival route and I’m crossing it I expect I’ll be the one who gets vectored.

If you’ve got a particular problem with a routing you often are assigned it can be helpful to contact approach control for that area and find out what might work better.

I did. And it worked. It turned out that if my initial cruise altitude requests were 7,000’ MSL or lower I’d get my desired route and shortly after passing a major inbound fix for Los Angeles I could get any altitude I wanted. Otherwise I’d get vectored 30 miles out of my way (the wrong way).

Problem solved.

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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 10:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
I completely get your point. You’re not wrong. And I try to be as helpful as I can, but not everyone can get their way.


Do you consider it rude to transit near DFW airspace and not be on FF?


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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 10:38 
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I completely get your point. You’re not wrong. And I try to be as helpful as I can, but not everyone can get their way.


Do you consider it rude to transit near DFW airspace and not be on FF?


I don’t at all consider it rude. You’re just out there doing your thing. I’d rather talk to you, making it easier to “miss” you, but I understand some pilots want to do what they want to do and not be bothered with vectors or altitude changes. You may see some large jets nearby descending through your altitude, which sometimes makes me nervous when I’m flying. Glance at the STARS in to surrounding airport and you’ll get a basic understanding of good and bad places/altitudes to be. Once tours open back up, if ever, I’m happy to give anyone a tour of “regional approach” (DFW approach). It’s eye opening for most

What I do consider rude/dangerous, although legal, is flying at 2900’ under the 3000’ B shelf under finals to a major airport.

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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 11:59 
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So much is a question of attitude. Most student pilots are scared to call up a bravo at all. Some controllers are courteous, professional, and helpful. Others seem to be easily annoyed and have an intimidating tone. I know pilots aren’t always the best either, but I can sometimes give them a pass because we’re often not pros where the controllers always are.

I’m always confused when I hear a very impatient or downright aggressive and rude controller. Ironically the ones at busy approach facilities tend to be more patient and efficient and a pleasure to work with.


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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 12:56 
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So much is a question of attitude. Most student pilots are scared to call up a bravo at all. Some controllers are courteous, professional, and helpful. Others seem to be easily annoyed and have an intimidating tone. I know pilots aren’t always the best either, but I can sometimes give them a pass because we’re often not pros where the controllers always are.

I’m always confused when I hear a very impatient or downright aggressive and rude controller. Ironically the ones at busy approach facilities tend to be more patient and efficient and a pleasure to work with.



All controllers are pros but not all of them are professional. We’re in the customer service business, some people just suck at it.

Some people are just ass holes unfortunately, I work with a handful of them. I always call them out when they think it’s a good idea to berate a pilot on frequency. If that ever happens to you, ask for the phone number and call when you land.


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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 15:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
So much is a question of attitude. Most student pilots are scared to call up a bravo at all. …. I know pilots aren’t always the best either, but I can sometimes give them a pass because we’re often not pros where the controllers always are.

Putting myself in controllers’ shoes for a moment, I think that pilots should have a little bit of self awareness of where they are in the learning curve - if you are a new student, or flying the slowest of training aircraft, or whatever, putting yourself into the mix of a busy class B approach path at push time might not be a great first experience. Do it in the less busy corner of the airspace on a lazy Sunday morning or whatever. Once you’ve done it once, it gets a lot easier to know what to expect and you can begin to have the confidence and professionalism to expand your boundaries.

I’m not saying one doesn’t have the right to do it, but rights need to be used with a bit of good judgement.

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 Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 15:56 
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So much is a question of attitude. Most student pilots are scared to call up a bravo at all. …. I know pilots aren’t always the best either, but I can sometimes give them a pass because we’re often not pros where the controllers always are.

Putting myself in controllers’ shoes for a moment, I think that pilots should have a little bit of self awareness of where they are in the learning curve - if you are a new student, or flying the slowest of training aircraft, or whatever, putting yourself into the mix of a busy class B approach path at push time might not be a great first experience. Do it in the less busy corner of the airspace on a lazy Sunday morning or whatever. Once you’ve done it once, it gets a lot easier to know what to expect and you can begin to have the confidence and professionalism to expand your boundaries.

I’m not saying one doesn’t have the right to do it, but rights need to be used with a bit of good judgement.


I more meant calling a bravo approach facility, not necessarily transiting the bravo itself. If I ask for a practice approach I can usually tell by tone and word choice from the controller how things are going to go. I can handle myself but a newly IFR rated pilot running practice instrument approaches could easily be intimidated by some controllers. On flight following more than once I've been requested to fly a vector that ended up going into terrain because the controller was busy. I'd be VFR in those cases and I can see it and adjust but clearly not ideal. Others are very helpful, and even share some tips. These controllers seem to be the ones that are very cool under stress and no matter how busy always seem to find time for everyone.

Not approach related, but a student overhearing another pilot chastised on the air for a minor mistake (or even not a mistake) really has an effect on when and how they key the mike. I think this is one significant contributing factor to many accidents, because many lower time (or just infrequent) pilots are so hesitant to ask for help or declare an emergency.

I do understand controllers constantly dealing with student pilots doing the wrong thing can wear patience thin. Speaking for myself, I'd enjoy (to a limit) providing help, which may be because I'm a pilot and I know what it feels like to be a new pilot in a busy airspace and you're trying to make sure the airplane is doing the right thing at the same time you're trying to do what the controller wants.

It seems sometimes at certain airfields the controller just doesn't want to be there. Other times, it's a pleasure, and they work together with pilots of all experience levels to make sure things run safely and smoothly. At KAPA, I think we are lucky because with only rare exceptions they are professional, helpful, and generally very good at their job. KAPA is unique in that we have constant training operations with student pilots and almost constant jet traffic at the same time, and even some F-15s from time to time, all under a Bravo and next to an air force base, at the foot of the rockies. A 172 doesn't climb very well at 10,000ft density altitude, when compared with a King Air or Gulfstream landing a few hundred feet away on the parallel.

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