23 Apr 2024, 02:27 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 13 Sep 2021, 17:19 |
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Joined: 04/28/21 Posts: 100 Post Likes: +62 Company: Charwood Partners
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Username Protected wrote: I completely get your point. You’re not wrong. And I try to be as helpful as I can, but not everyone can get their way. What I don't understand is why DFW Approach is so hell bent on not letting IFR traffic >10k traverse the airspace, i.e. one of my most common flights is STYCK7.DOLEY.FUZ.(Rest of route here) at 12k. You're above the approach corridor and arrivals, below all the airline traffic. You can overfly Houston and Los Angeles, but adding an hour of flight time going out of the way is maddening when it's totally unnecessary. When you cancel IFR, overfly, and then go back to IFR on the northwest side of DFW, FWARTCC gets all sorts of pissy. What I'd really like to see is a public database of all the letter agreements the FAA has between facilities, so you could see if there's a pattern, and if so, what it is. And Mike, i'm not calling you out specifically, but it's more of a general annoyance.
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 13 Sep 2021, 18:08 |
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Joined: 05/20/15 Posts: 103 Post Likes: +81
Aircraft: RV8 in progress
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Username Protected wrote: I completely get your point. You’re not wrong. And I try to be as helpful as I can, but not everyone can get their way. What I don't understand is why DFW Approach is so hell bent on not letting IFR traffic >10k traverse the airspace, i.e. one of my most common flights is STYCK7.DOLEY.FUZ.(Rest of route here) at 12k. You're above the approach corridor and arrivals, below all the airline traffic. You can overfly Houston and Los Angeles, but adding an hour of flight time going out of the way is maddening when it's totally unnecessary. When you cancel IFR, overfly, and then go back to IFR on the northwest side of DFW, FWARTCC gets all sorts of pissy. What I'd really like to see is a public database of all the letter agreements the FAA has between facilities, so you could see if there's a pattern, and if so, what it is. And Mike, i'm not calling you out specifically, but it's more of a general annoyance.
Only familiar with FUZ, but I pulled up your routing. I have a picture that I can’t attach for some reason that will maybe help you understand why that routing isn’t very workable, I’ll see if I can message it to you. Yes you’re below the arrivals, but departures climb to 10k initially off DFW. Lots of crossing traffic south of DFW with jets from the western airports going east and east going west. We’d have to “thread the needle” with you and it’s more risk than it’s worth. Maybe request VFR-on-top next time you try that routing and see how it works out? May or may not help.
I wish they’d make the LOAs public too, but they won’t for some reason. ZFW-D10 LOA states “no IFR overflights are allowed”. They typically will route you via the VORs outside the airspace. (JEN UKW BYP CQY)
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 13 Sep 2021, 18:18 |
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Joined: 05/20/15 Posts: 103 Post Likes: +81
Aircraft: RV8 in progress
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 13 Sep 2021, 18:23 |
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Joined: 04/28/21 Posts: 100 Post Likes: +62 Company: Charwood Partners
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Username Protected wrote: Only familiar with FUZ, but I pulled up your routing. I have a picture that I can’t attach for some reason that will maybe help you understand why that routing isn’t very workable, I’ll see if I can message it to you. Yes you’re below the arrivals, but departures climb to 10k initially off DFW. Lots of crossing traffic south of DFW with jets from the western airports going east and east going west. We’d have to “thread the needle” with you and it’s more risk than it’s worth. Maybe request VFR-on-top next time you try that routing and see how it works out? May or may not help.
I wish they’d make the LOAs public too, but they won’t for some reason. ZFW-D10 LOA states “no IFR overflights are allowed”. They typically will route you via the VORs outside the airspace. (JEN UKW BYP CQY) No worries. Its irritating more than anything. Other equally busy airspaces have it figured out. I overflew KATL at 7000 last week. Not landing anywhere near the Atlanta B. Just frustrating that there's no level of continuity that's readily apparent across the country.
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 13 Sep 2021, 18:31 |
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Joined: 05/20/15 Posts: 103 Post Likes: +81
Aircraft: RV8 in progress
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Username Protected wrote: Only familiar with FUZ, but I pulled up your routing. I have a picture that I can’t attach for some reason that will maybe help you understand why that routing isn’t very workable, I’ll see if I can message it to you. Yes you’re below the arrivals, but departures climb to 10k initially off DFW. Lots of crossing traffic south of DFW with jets from the western airports going east and east going west. We’d have to “thread the needle” with you and it’s more risk than it’s worth. Maybe request VFR-on-top next time you try that routing and see how it works out? May or may not help.
I wish they’d make the LOAs public too, but they won’t for some reason. ZFW-D10 LOA states “no IFR overflights are allowed”. They typically will route you via the VORs outside the airspace. (JEN UKW BYP CQY) No worries. Its irritating more than anything. Other equally busy airspaces have it figured out. I overflew KATL at 7000 last week. Not landing anywhere near the Atlanta B. Just frustrating that there's no level of continuity that's readily apparent across the country.
They have established routes for that. Believe it or not, DFW airspace is significantly busier than ATL. Like 1/4 million more operations per year. The bulk of traffic in to ATLs airspace is landing ATL. Not the case in DFW airspace. Not saying they aren’t busy, but they definitely have less of the crossing traffic than DFW.
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 14 Sep 2021, 09:02 |
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Joined: 08/24/18 Posts: 492 Post Likes: +346 Location: New Jersey, KVAY
Aircraft: Citabria
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Username Protected wrote: What I do consider rude/dangerous, although legal, is flying at 2900’ under the 3000’ B shelf under finals to a major airport.
Mike: This comment that fly just under the Class B air space was dangerous surprised me. My assumption is that the Class B air space is designed to separate VFR traffic from arrivals and departures at the primary airport. The PHL class airspace was redesigned and expanded about 8 years ago with the stated purposed of ensuring separation of VFR traffic from the arrivals and departures. The floor of the 4000 foot ring was lowered to 3000. So it seemed reasonable to me that anything less than 3000 feet was a safe since that was now 1000 feet lower than the previous 4000 floor . Can you provide some details on how flying just under the class B floor erodes safety? Thanks Mark
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 14 Sep 2021, 11:55 |
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Joined: 07/19/10 Posts: 2728 Post Likes: +1168 Company: Keller Williams Realty Location: Madison, WI (91C)
Aircraft: 1967 Bonanza V35
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Username Protected wrote: What I do consider rude/dangerous, although legal, is flying at 2900’ under the 3000’ B shelf under finals to a major airport.
Mike: Can you provide some details on how flying just under the class B floor erodes safety? Thanks Mark I'm not Mike, but most class B air ports are surrounded with heavily populated areas with limited places for emergency landing. The lower you go there the higher the risk (as in less time to react and get to a reasonable spot) in case of emergency. I flew several times in Chicago class B and was kept down low by ATC (2500-3000) and I couldn't wait to get approval for climb. One time flying west from PWK local controller asked me 'would you rather go higher or more direct'? I immediately responded 'higher', got `turn right 330, climb and maintain 6000`. I was much happier that day.
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 14 Sep 2021, 13:37 |
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Joined: 08/05/16 Posts: 3109 Post Likes: +2225 Company: Tack Mobile Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
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Username Protected wrote: What I do consider rude/dangerous, although legal, is flying at 2900’ under the 3000’ B shelf under finals to a major airport.
Mike: This comment that fly just under the Class B air space was dangerous surprised me. My assumption is that the Class B air space is designed to separate VFR traffic from arrivals and departures at the primary airport. The PHL class airspace was redesigned and expanded about 8 years ago with the stated purposed of ensuring separation of VFR traffic from the arrivals and departures. The floor of the 4000 foot ring was lowered to 3000. So it seemed reasonable to me that anything less than 3000 feet was a safe since that was now 1000 feet lower than the previous 4000 floor . Can you provide some details on how flying just under the class B floor erodes safety? Thanks Mark
I toured the KDEN tracon and they showed us a 3D flight path history along final. It was common for the airliners to drop below the Bravo before both of the last airspace steps on final, in a few cases significantly so. If there was a VFR flight 100 ft below hugging the lateral boundaries of the next lower shelf they'd collide.
The solution of course is to have airlines not do that, but they're already not supposed to and they don't have the charts with the Bravo altitudes up on final (or ever, probably). A more practical solution is to create a notch in the Bravo for these approaches, or train crews to not do this. I'd image if this happens today, they'd have to send the airliner around. I would think that is pretty rare, and why there is no urgency around the problem. Today even many trainers have in cockpit traffic, and all airliners have some version of TCAS, so that may further reduce the need for this.
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 14 Sep 2021, 15:57 |
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Joined: 05/20/15 Posts: 103 Post Likes: +81
Aircraft: RV8 in progress
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Username Protected wrote: What I do consider rude/dangerous, although legal, is flying at 2900’ under the 3000’ B shelf under finals to a major airport.
Mike: This comment that fly just under the Class B air space was dangerous surprised me. My assumption is that the Class B air space is designed to separate VFR traffic from arrivals and departures at the primary airport. The PHL class airspace was redesigned and expanded about 8 years ago with the stated purposed of ensuring separation of VFR traffic from the arrivals and departures. The floor of the 4000 foot ring was lowered to 3000. So it seemed reasonable to me that anything less than 3000 feet was a safe since that was now 1000 feet lower than the previous 4000 floor . Can you provide some details on how flying just under the class B floor erodes safety? Thanks Mark
John worded it pretty well. My thoughts on it, a/c landing at the airport are typically at the bottom of the B on the approach, in this case 3,000. Do you want to be 100’ below a 747? I personally don’t. Would you fly at 17,900’ just under class A airspace? To me it’s a safety issue for the little guys. The airlines will just have a TCAS/RA and break off the approach. It’s happened many times. I understand your thought process though, just now you may have a close call with an airliner doing that. And if you or they put in the wrong altimeter, you’re having more than just a close call. Is that extra few hundred feet really worth it?
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 14 Sep 2021, 17:46 |
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Joined: 04/28/21 Posts: 100 Post Likes: +62 Company: Charwood Partners
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Username Protected wrote: What I don't understand is why DFW Approach is so hell bent on not letting IFR traffic >10k traverse the airspace, i.e. one of my most common flights is STYCK7.DOLEY.FUZ.(Rest of route here) at 12k. You're above the approach corridor and arrivals, below all the airline traffic. You can overfly Houston and Los Angeles, but adding an hour of flight time going out of the way is maddening when it's totally unnecessary.
When you cancel IFR, overfly, and then go back to IFR on the northwest side of DFW, FWARTCC gets all sorts of pissy.
What I'd really like to see is a public database of all the letter agreements the FAA has between facilities, so you could see if there's a pattern, and if so, what it is.
And Mike, i'm not calling you out specifically, but it's more of a general annoyance. Only familiar with FUZ, but I pulled up your routing. I have a picture that I can’t attach for some reason that will maybe help you understand why that routing isn’t very workable, I’ll see if I can message it to you. Yes you’re below the arrivals, but departures climb to 10k initially off DFW. Lots of crossing traffic south of DFW with jets from the western airports going east and east going west. We’d have to “thread the needle” with you and it’s more risk than it’s worth. Maybe request VFR-on-top next time you try that routing and see how it works out? May or may not help. I wish they’d make the LOAs public too, but they won’t for some reason. ZFW-D10 LOA states “no IFR overflights are allowed”. They typically will route you via the VORs outside the airspace. (JEN UKW BYP CQY)
Mike, just because i'm curious, I've cancelled IFR when they gave me a reroute, flown VFR, and picked up an in-air IFR on the northwest side of town. Fort Worth Center was all kinds of bent out of shape, telling me how I shouldn't be doing that, etc... Went over the top of the bravo shelf at 12,500' so it wasn't like I was illegal. What's easier for ya'll, and least likely to get a lecture from someone at Center, assuming I'm hell-bent on going over the metroplex rather than around. Doing that? Or just filing a separate flight plan from some random fix...
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 14 Sep 2021, 17:47 |
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Joined: 08/24/18 Posts: 492 Post Likes: +346 Location: New Jersey, KVAY
Aircraft: Citabria
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Username Protected wrote: John worded it pretty well. My thoughts on it, a/c landing at the airport are typically at the bottom of the B on the approach, in this case 3,000. Do you want to be 100’ below a 747? I personally don’t. Would you fly at 17,900’ just under class A airspace? To me it’s a safety issue for the little guys. The airlines will just have a TCAS/RA and break off the approach. It’s happened many times. I understand your thought process though, just now you may have a close call with an airliner doing that. And if you or they put in the wrong altimeter, you’re having more than just a close call. Is that extra few hundred feet really worth it?
Mike: Everything that you says makes sense. My home airport is under the PHL class B so this is my typical operating environment. I do allow a buffer below the class B for reasons you state but that part that surprises me and I feel is a safety issue is that apparently traffic in the class B is not required to also maintain a suitable buffer from the bottom of the class B and as described by the another commenter they sometime drop below the bottom of the class B.
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 14 Sep 2021, 18:06 |
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Joined: 05/20/15 Posts: 103 Post Likes: +81
Aircraft: RV8 in progress
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Username Protected wrote:
Mike, just because i'm curious, I've cancelled IFR when they gave me a reroute, flown VFR, and picked up an in-air IFR on the northwest side of town. Fort Worth Center was all kinds of bent out of shape, telling me how I shouldn't be doing that, etc... Went over the top of the bravo shelf at 12,500' so it wasn't like I was illegal. What's easier for ya'll, and least likely to get a lecture from someone at Center, assuming I'm hell-bent on going over the metroplex rather than around. Doing that? Or just filing a separate flight plan from some random fix...
Only reason I can think the center would be annoyed is once you cancel your IFR they’re probably removing it from the system. Then when you ask to pick it back up, they have to re-enter all your information. If they have other things going on, this can be a slight distraction. It’s all about how you word things. Try telling them he would like to cancel your IFR temporarily, to sightsee or something, and you will pick it back up later. Once you get back with the center, let them know you’re ready to pick your IFR back up and be on your way. Altitude wise, depending on exactly where you’re crossing DFW 10,500-11,500 may be better. Arrivals are descending to 12k.
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 14 Sep 2021, 18:13 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Altitude wise, depending on exactly where you’re crossing DFW 10,500-11,500 may be better. Arrivals are descending to 12k. DFW class B tops out at 11,000 ft, so 10,500 ft would be bad. Minimum west bound would be 12,500 ft. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM Posted: 14 Sep 2021, 18:27 |
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Joined: 05/20/15 Posts: 103 Post Likes: +81
Aircraft: RV8 in progress
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Username Protected wrote: Altitude wise, depending on exactly where you’re crossing DFW 10,500-11,500 may be better. Arrivals are descending to 12k. DFW class B tops out at 11,000 ft, so 10,500 ft would be bad. Minimum west bound would be 12,500 ft. Mike C.
10,500 isn’t that bad, as long as you’re talking and cleared in the B. Which happens. Maybe I should’ve specified. 11,500 is an assignable altitude, regardless of direction from a controllers stand point. If I need you there, that’s what I’ll assign. And once I can get you back to altitude correct for direction I’ll do that.
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