Unfortunately, this is not Beech related, but I can't think of a better forum to ask this on.

I fly an Aerostar 601P today. Love the aircraft and really don't need much more in performance. However, a first generation Turbo Commander has come on the scene within my price range. It's got a panel from hell (not even GPS, and all the stuff is more or less original from 1967), a ratty interior and about 1100hrs left on the 5400 TBO engines. Enough to last me for many years.

Reason I'm interested in this turbine is that I like the reliability. I like that I can take the Commander into smaller and even unimproved fields, which I had to kind of give up with the Aerostar. I like that it's full FIKI (on the Aerostar I'd have to add inner boots). I like that it has good range. I like that I can take it to Europe and not have to scavenge hunt for Avgas at every airport. I like that it's a Commander and I like how stable and forgiving they are (I used to own a piston Commander).

But I'm afraid of the hidden costs and the potential moneypitness of it all. I've never owned a turbine before, so how much difference is it really? I understand the fuel, but how about M/X? I understand a hot section inspection can cost from pretty much nothing to a lot, but generally is in the $10-20K range. What is the board members experiences when you stepped up - was the maintenance similar to your high end piston, or did it increase enormously? Has the turbine been more reliable?

How much did your insurance increase when stepping from twin piston to twin turbine?

Any other tips for owning a first generation turbine?

I make a good living, but I'm by no means rich. I can't afford to buy a newer turbine with a glass panel right now. It would have to be something like this - a first generation turbine with steam gauges that's a little bit less sexy on the market. Just want to know what I might be getting myself into if I go down this route.

Thank you.

I am not familiar with the Aerostar or the Turbo Commander or Garretts for that matter. But I would say that the step from piston to turboprop, is a gamble, and generally the odds are in your favor. If all goes well the maintenance cost should be predictable. But, if an engine grenades, you will be in for 1/2 mil, maybe more.

In the Beech line, Parts cost escalate by a factor of about 3, P-Baron vs. King Air.

Support and Parts availability should be a big consideration for you.

It's all relative, ain't it?


Commanders are beautiful. I hope you can make it happen.

First thing to do is find out the value of the engines is. That is the easy exit strategy from a turbine. If you can get $150k of engines for $175k then you hsve very little downside risk.

The second thing is the required maintenance items. There are mandatory prop and gear overhauls every six years I think at $25k or so each. There is the spar AD and the window AD as well. For $500 spent looking at the logs, a TC shop can give you a pretty good estimate what you will need to spend the next few years.

No. A TC as described is a sub $250k, probably sub $200k plane. Worst case you just walk away if an engine grenades. The rest will part out well.

Alternately you buy a used engine which is easy to do in a Garrett. That's probably doable for 5 figures to replace a high time engine.

Adam, I was going to suggest the Commander list but I just checked and see you are already on it. With some luck you should find someone there who is knowledgeable regarding the 680V. All I know is they have a !$it-ton of fuel cells and it's likely the wing spar A.D. applies to that model. Great looking plane though and I have heard that pilots love flying them. You're gonna need a B-I-G hangar!

Thanks.

I have my old Commander guru I've consulted. The 680V is good in that it only has some of the SB's of the later models and they're relatively easy to comply with. The downside is that it's 45+ years old with all that entails.

I just lack the frame of reference when it comes to costs. For instance, can I assume that the mandatory prop overhaul every 60months will be on par with a piston prop overhaul? Or do they add 'extra' just because it's turbine world?

680V is kind of an oddball and I don't know much about it compared to the 690's

Does it have bleed air pressurization? The hydraulic system is not desirable.

What model engines does it have? If it doesn't have a common model, they will neither have much value to sell nor be easy to replace.

Is this the $175K one in ALaska?

As I recall, prop overhaul was about $10-$15K per side and probably in line with what a reversing prop would cost on a 600hp piston. THis assumes you don't have to replace any blades, though - after several overhaul cycles with a few thousandths shaved off each time they no longer meet limits. You then can eithe buy all new blades, or buy a few new blades and grind them almost to limits to match your old prop. A bunch of MU2 guys have spent $80K on new props in situations like that recently.

It has the Century conversion. Which mens bleed air pressurisation and the newer TPE331-151's, which is good. Yes, that's the one for $175K. Haven't seen it yet, but it's in California. Gonna look at it in the week, hopefully.

I saw the ad on Controller and see what you mean re: avionics. Does anyone even support or service the Honeywell H14 autopilot anymore? It's a pretty ancient piece - pneumatic like a Brittain IIRC.

WING SPAR SB 223 DUE 7100.2
LOWER SPAR NDI SB 90Cc DUE TTAF 7248.3

These are the big things. Find out what the history is with these. The commander spar issues can easily retire a $175K aircraft.

The super 1 engines are good performers, but don't have much resale market. I looked at a plane with them and in asking around got numbers like $25-$50K to resell them.

This is an 80gph airplane. At $5/gal, 100 hours/year, you're talking $40K/yr in gas. I think you'd probably be better off getting a well-maintained 690 with -6's at $300K. Your operating expenses will be the same and you will have a much easier time exiting ownership whole.

Or if you can buy it for $100K, it might be a good deal.

My gut feeling says not a good deal.

Between now and the next five years, this airplane will need radios capable of 8.33 spacing (Europe), ADS-B (Europe first, then USA), wing & lower spar AD compliance, prop overhaul, engine overhauls, and no doubt many other inspections/maintenance items not listed. My guess is that the airplane can't be equipped with ADS-B without significant expense, which will limit the use of the airplane to just a few years.

Again, just gut feeling, but I suspect that this airplane needs $500,000+ into it over the next few years, just to continue to make it (marginally) usable and airworthy.

The spar AD and SB is just an inspection, it's not a major deal on this model. I had it on my Commander too. Just an Eddy current and visual inspection. Probably around 15-20 man hrs for both. The 690's have a much tougher one to comply with which is why they often have the spar mod. They have a greater wingspan, too.

However, that kind of fuel burn would be a non starter. I'd thought it was closer to 60gph. And as mentioned, the avionics is a total refurb. Every thing needs replacing.

TR is really into the 1SP CJ's. He's buying them cheap, flying them and parting them out etc. Seems like if you knew all the ins and outs you could do well. Only downside I could see is fuel burn.