28 Mar 2024, 18:15 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 31 Aug 2021, 10:12 |
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Joined: 04/01/13 Posts: 6268 Post Likes: +6942 Location: Overland Park, KS (KOJC)
Aircraft: 1975 Bonanza F33A
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Username Protected wrote: Lack of pressurization in the DA 62 is a drawback for a turbocharged piston plane that costs $1.4 million.
But if you can get past that, operating costs are way, way below any turbine aircraft.
Lack of pressurization and the fact that it's not very fast. It's hardly any faster than my F33A and burns a similar amount of fuel. It's a good-looking plane and I think I'd love to fly one. But if I don't get there any faster than my Bonanza, I don't see the point; at least for me.
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 31 Aug 2021, 10:57 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2514 Post Likes: +1240
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Username Protected wrote: Lack of pressurization in the DA 62 is a drawback for a turbocharged piston plane that costs $1.4 million.
But if you can get past that, operating costs are way, way below any turbine aircraft.
Lack of pressurization and the fact that it's not very fast. It's hardly any faster than my F33A and burns a similar amount of fuel. It's a good-looking plane and I think I'd love to fly one. But if I don't get there any faster than my Bonanza, I don't see the point; at least for me. Twin-engine redundancy and seven seats?
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 31 Aug 2021, 12:14 |
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Joined: 10/01/15 Posts: 184 Post Likes: +63 Location: Nashville, TN
Aircraft: C340 Ram VII
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Username Protected wrote: Lack of pressurization in the DA 62 is a drawback for a turbocharged piston plane that costs $1.4 million.
But if you can get past that, operating costs are way, way below any turbine aircraft.
Lack of pressurization and the fact that it's not very fast. It's hardly any faster than my F33A and burns a similar amount of fuel. It's a good-looking plane and I think I'd love to fly one. But if I don't get there any faster than my Bonanza, I don't see the point; at least for me.
If they offered a pressurized and non-pressurized variant I think it would be a lot more appealing. But I'm sure they did plenty of market research to determine most people wanting pressurized just go up to SETP and the drop in UL probably would make it less appealing as well.
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 31 Aug 2021, 13:22 |
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Joined: 05/30/17 Posts: 198 Post Likes: +159
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Hey guys, there is no value proposition for the DA62. It's the same cost as a Baron or a Piper M350. I like the plane, and loved how it flew. Really impressive aircraft and worth a demo ride if you have any interest at all. But there is no economic justification for it to be completely honest. But if we are honest with ourselves, there's usually not much economic justification for most of the money we spend on aviation. I also fly an M600 turboprop (owned with a partner) but am on Basic Med right now and not sure about the long term with a turbine at BasicMed altitudes. I will say, however, that the 600 flies great in the teens and goes 240+ knots on 45 gph of JetA and is an 1100+ nm aircraft even at that fuel burn and altitude, which is really nice. Cabin altitude is 3500-4000 plus or minus. But in the end, as I approach retirement (I'm in my early 60s) I'm looking for a cost-effective, long term aircraft that I can fly well into my 70s (health permitting) regardless of whether I get my medical back (which I have a pretty good shot at doing actually). And for which insurance won't cost me the equivalent of a new car every year ... Plus it has to look cool and be fun to fly, both of which boxes the DA62 checks in spades I'm just fortunate that I am in the financial position to do this. I will note that right now, these aircraft are trading used for more than they cost new, so I am happy with the decision so far (not sure how long that will last, however). Cheers PS: Diamond has no plans to pressurize anything. That would require a clean sheet design and a lot of certification costs. Even if they doubled their 62 sales, that would be a tough proposition for them. The DA62 passenger windows are huge and that would likely have to change with a pressure vessel, as well as the cabin interior volumes. So that's just not going to happen IMO.
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 31 Aug 2021, 15:14 |
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Joined: 04/01/13 Posts: 6268 Post Likes: +6942 Location: Overland Park, KS (KOJC)
Aircraft: 1975 Bonanza F33A
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Username Protected wrote: Hey guys, there is no value proposition for the DA62. It's the same cost as a Baron or a Piper M350. I like the plane, and loved how it flew. Really impressive aircraft and worth a demo ride if you have any interest at all. But there is no economic justification for it to be completely honest. But if we are honest with ourselves, there's usually not much economic justification for most of the money we spend on aviation. If you like it, you want it, and you can afford it, no further value proposition is necessary. That’s great and congratulations! I’ll be interested in PIREPs when you get it and fly it a while.
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 01 Sep 2021, 16:08 |
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Joined: 10/18/11 Posts: 1026 Post Likes: +584
Aircraft: Seabee Aerostar 700
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two key things. the DA62 is really aimed at the rest of the world where Jet A is the only reliable high quality aircraft fuel available anywhere. and all the comparison aircraft are SETP
we have to remember the price of a new Beech baron is about 1.48 million so the 62 may be somewhat over priced for its capability but it is in the ball park of any new piston twin that will be built.
if Diamond ever gets its 300 hp diesel working that will make for a very useful twin elsewhere in the world.
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 01 Sep 2021, 16:12 |
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Joined: 04/20/15 Posts: 556 Post Likes: +311 Location: KFAT
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Joel, hope you enjoy the 62 for many, many years in good health.
We're coming up on 6 years of flying and operating a 42-VI. Not super heavy use, but 2-300 hours/year translates to decent fuel savings. Maybe I can give you or anyone else here considering an Austro diamond a potential look into the future.
Mx is my main pain point on this plane. It's polarized--either really reasonable and cheap, or absurdly expensive and unreliable. I think we've munched through 2 gearboxes and 2 TVDs now, and they're 10k a piece. No annual has been less than $17k and as much as 40k, but we're going to service centers. They're the only ones that Diamond will ship parts to or funnel parts through. For the sake of minimizing downtime, we do it.
Do your homework on the cheap stuff and it softens the blow on 100 hour engine and some annual items. Oil, oil filters, air filters, the panasonic backup batteries are all something like 50% off if you buy them yourself rather than through the shop. Annoyingly, the 900 hour fuel injectors have a Benz part number AND an Austro number. No shop will throw in Benz-only part number fuel injectors for me, so we pay 2-3x for an Austro labeled Benz fuel injector (something like 7-8k for 8 vs 2k). Annoying.
Fuel delta between avgas and jet A is $2-3/gallon here (it used to be $3-4). ~4000 gallons of fuel used in a year, so the savings make a dent.
Everyone knows or can go fly the plane to learn how it flies. I like it a lot. Vno could be 15-20 knots higher. It's fun to hand fly. Trusty to fly through whatever bad weather California can throw us. Takes a while for an FBO to realize we can't take 75 gallons of fuel to waive the parking fee...
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 01 Sep 2021, 17:27 |
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Joined: 05/30/17 Posts: 198 Post Likes: +159
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Thanks! I know from the DAN group that MX costs can vary a lot among owners and shops. The group that is managing my plane (they already manage our M600) has another client taking delivery of a 62 in February, so they are thinking about sending their people to get trained on the Austros - which should be a net positive at least for routine items.
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 02 Sep 2021, 10:57 |
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Joined: 04/01/13 Posts: 6268 Post Likes: +6942 Location: Overland Park, KS (KOJC)
Aircraft: 1975 Bonanza F33A
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Username Protected wrote: Mx is my main pain point on this plane. It's polarized--either really reasonable and cheap, or absurdly expensive and unreliable. I think we've munched through 2 gearboxes and 2 TVDs now, and they're 10k a piece. No annual has been less than $17k and as much as 40k, but we're going to service centers. They're the only ones that Diamond will ship parts to or funnel parts through. For the sake of minimizing downtime, we do it.
Neema Thanks for the real-world report on owning a DA42. Sounds like you enjoy the plane and are getting a lot of use out of it. But, from where I sit those MX expenses look eyewatering. Buying an old Baron and ending up with some big annuals while you catch up on maintenance is one thing. But you've got big expenses on what is essentially a new airplane. Those numbers sound like MX expenses on a TBM. Thanks again for the report. I think I'll go wax my Bonanza and fall in love all over again. Jack
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 02 Sep 2021, 16:02 |
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Joined: 04/20/15 Posts: 556 Post Likes: +311 Location: KFAT
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Username Protected wrote: Mx is my main pain point on this plane. It's polarized--either really reasonable and cheap, or absurdly expensive and unreliable. I think we've munched through 2 gearboxes and 2 TVDs now, and they're 10k a piece. No annual has been less than $17k and as much as 40k, but we're going to service centers. They're the only ones that Diamond will ship parts to or funnel parts through. For the sake of minimizing downtime, we do it.
Neema Thanks for the real-world report on owning a DA42. Sounds like you enjoy the plane and are getting a lot of use out of it. But, from where I sit those MX expenses look eyewatering. Buying an old Baron and ending up with some big annuals while you catch up on maintenance is one thing. But you've got big expenses on what is essentially a new airplane. Those numbers sound like MX expenses on a TBM. Thanks again for the report. I think I'll go wax my Bonanza and fall in love all over again. Jack
Wish we could go that way. It's a family plane and I'm outnumbered when it comes to emphasis on aircraft age.
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 03 Sep 2021, 10:03 |
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Joined: 10/18/11 Posts: 1026 Post Likes: +584
Aircraft: Seabee Aerostar 700
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How are the maintenance costs etc when flying the Diamond/Austro engine vs the Theilert/ Continental engine?.
As I remember the Thielert was very expensive because of gearbox/ vibration damper required rebuilds. and a low TBR (time before replacement)
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 20 Jul 2022, 18:53 |
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Joined: 01/05/11 Posts: 314 Post Likes: +226
Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
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Username Protected wrote: Resurrecting this year-old thread since a DA-42-VI has come in my sight .
So here's the latest Intel on these heavy fuel burners:
- Austro will no longer overhaul/rebuild engines, TBO 1800H; - Austro has substantially increased the price of replacement engines to @ $50K - Austro replacement engines are on an current 1 Year backlog - Austro does not allow prop-strikes, you trash the engine following a prop-strike, then wait at least a year for a new one and since were talking about twins, poney-up over $100K for the day they actually can deliver a pair. - Should you feather a prop and re-start in the air (remember, 90% of the DA42 fleet is used for training); you will need a new engine in the next 100h .
Factor all of the above into your fuel savings and let me know how it works out. What a deal…
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 20 Jul 2022, 21:01 |
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Joined: 11/15/17 Posts: 668 Post Likes: +335 Company: Cessna (retired)
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Username Protected wrote: Resurrecting this year-old thread since a DA-42-VI has come in my sight .
So here's the latest Intel on these heavy fuel burners:
- Austro will no longer overhaul/rebuild engines, TBO 1800H; - Austro has substantially increased the price of replacement engines to @ $50K - Austro replacement engines are on an current 1 Year backlog - Austro does not allow prop-strikes, you trash the engine following a prop-strike, then wait at least a year for a new one and since were talking about twins, poney-up over $100K for the day they actually can deliver a pair. - Should you feather a prop and re-start in the air (remember, 90% of the DA42 fleet is used for training); you will need a new engine in the next 100h .
Factor all of the above into your fuel savings and let me know how it works out. Why is that (bolded)?
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Post subject: Re: Diesel aircraft? DA42, what else? Posted: 20 Jul 2022, 23:08 |
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Joined: 06/28/09 Posts: 14129 Post Likes: +9074 Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
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Username Protected wrote: - Austro will no longer overhaul/rebuild engines, TBO 1800H; - Austro has substantially increased the price of replacement engines to @ $50K For what it's worth, have you priced a reman from AirPower lately? I just priced an O-540 rebuilt and it's 65k... you can add 20.5 if you don't have a core to exchange. 85.5k for an engine! Those diesels sip fuel too, and if you're in Europe the fuel is 40% of Avgas and available everywhere vs Avgas which you take your chances they'll have at your destination... also no 100LL viability conundrums. There is a place for diesel. The Diamonds are awesome airplanes too.
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