banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 19:16 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 2098 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79 ... 140  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2021, 12:03 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 07/10/10
Posts: 937
Post Likes: +620
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
Username Protected wrote:
They call it a life limit. I thought life limitations were mandatory regardless of the inspection program you are using.

It's not a life-limit. It's an MSB (Now part of the SID) requiring replacement of the spar-cap at 12,500 hours. According to Scott Dickey's post above, it will have a compliance cost of about $90K.

_________________
----Still emotionally attached to my Baron----


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2021, 18:33 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/24/13
Posts: 8409
Post Likes: +3662
Company: Aviation Tools / CCX
Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
Username Protected wrote:
They call it a life limit. I thought life limitations were mandatory regardless of the inspection program you are using.

It's not a life-limit. It's an MSB (Now part of the SID) requiring replacement of the spar-cap at 12,500 hours. According to Scott Dickey's post above, it will have a compliance cost of about $90K.


From the 425 TCDS: Wing, lower carry-thru main spar 12,500 Hours

Is that not the same "spar-cap'?

Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 10:30 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 07/10/10
Posts: 937
Post Likes: +620
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
Username Protected wrote:
From the 425 TCDS: Wing, lower carry-thru main spar 12,500 Hours

Is that not the same "spar-cap'?

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were implying. Yes, the spar-cap has a life-limit of 12,500 hours, not the entire airplane.

_________________
----Still emotionally attached to my Baron----


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 10:55 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/24/13
Posts: 8409
Post Likes: +3662
Company: Aviation Tools / CCX
Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
Username Protected wrote:
I don't know of any conquest I's flying beyond 12,500 hours but theoretically if you made an election in the MX logs to stay with the previous version of the MM then the new version with the new phase would not apply to you and you could keep flying. That's my interpretation of how it works anyway.


But an election of a MM version just ties you to the non Chapter 4 inspections in that specific MM, right? Chapter 4 life limits if changed will still need to be abided by?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 13:33 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 07/10/10
Posts: 937
Post Likes: +620
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
Username Protected wrote:
But an election of a MM version just ties you to the non Chapter 4 inspections in that specific MM, right? Chapter 4 life limits if changed will still need to be abided by?

This is getting over my head. Perhaps someone else should answer your question.

_________________
----Still emotionally attached to my Baron----


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 18:55 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/21/21
Posts: 22
Post Likes: +16
Aircraft: C425 C525
This all is over my pay grade as well concerning the 425 SIDS. However, when I bought mine in 2017 I had West Star do the SIDS which involved removing the wings, the tail, and both motors. They did the spar straps at my request. My bill was around $140k. I am sure it would be higher today.

See pictures of my disassembled 425:


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
I have all the planes I need, but not all the planes I want.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 23:55 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23613
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
But an election of a MM version just ties you to the non Chapter 4 inspections in that specific MM, right? Chapter 4 life limits if changed will still need to be abided by?

I believe that once you elect an inspection program in the records, then you are not beholding to ANY changes to the MM after that point in time. To allow otherwise disagrees with the FAA counsel opinion on OEMs exercising rule making authority.

If the OEM updates chapter 4 (life limits), those changes may not apply to you UNLESS the life limits are further enforeced by AD or other FAA action.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 01:06 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 4946
Post Likes: +4784
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
You must have paper copies of the MM because if you are on one view it automatically updates.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 09:52 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23613
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
You must have paper copies of the MM because if you are on one view it automatically updates.

Not if you capture the online MM to PDFs.

A bit tedious to do for Textron, but once done, a lot more convenient to manage if electronic form.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 09:58 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/24/13
Posts: 8409
Post Likes: +3662
Company: Aviation Tools / CCX
Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
Username Protected wrote:
But an election of a MM version just ties you to the non Chapter 4 inspections in that specific MM, right? Chapter 4 life limits if changed will still need to be abided by?

I believe that once you elect an inspection program in the records, then you are not beholding to ANY changes to the MM after that point in time. To allow otherwise disagrees with the FAA counsel opinion on OEMs exercising rule making authority.

If the OEM updates chapter 4 (life limits), those changes may not apply to you UNLESS the life limits are further enforeced by AD or other FAA action.

Mike C.


Mike, do you have reference to that legal opinion?

Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 10:21 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/24/13
Posts: 8409
Post Likes: +3662
Company: Aviation Tools / CCX
Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
Username Protected wrote:
But an election of a MM version just ties you to the non Chapter 4 inspections in that specific MM, right? Chapter 4 life limits if changed will still need to be abided by?

I believe that once you elect an inspection program in the records, then you are not beholding to ANY changes to the MM after that point in time. To allow otherwise disagrees with the FAA counsel opinion on OEMs exercising rule making authority.

If the OEM updates chapter 4 (life limits), those changes may not apply to you UNLESS the life limits are further enforeced by AD or other FAA action.

Mike C.


I don't agree about Chapter 4. The life limits in Chapter 4 and the TCDS are FAA Approved. The rest of the MM (including the inspection intervals) is not approved, just accepted by the FAA. So any changes in Chapter 4 constitute FAA action.

For any approved FAA inspection program, 91.409(e) says:

"No person may operate a large airplane, turbojet multiengine airplane, turbopropeller-powered multiengine airplane, or turbine-powered rotorcraft unless the replacement times for life-limited parts specified in the aircraft specifications, type data sheets, or other documents approved by the Administrator are complied with"

So I see how electing an inspection program protects you against changes by the mfr to inspections additions and changes in subsequent MM revisions, but I don't see anything that lets you ignore life limits.

But if you have a reference to a legal opinion that supports your understanding it would change my mind. I bet any legal opinion is going to refer to changes in Chapter 5 inspections, not FAA Approved life limits.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 17:34 
Online


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 02/15/21
Posts: 2514
Post Likes: +1240
Terry, maybe Mike is referring to the Williams interpretation. But see the later Stroik interpretation.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... tation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... tation.pdf

_________________
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 17:50 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/24/13
Posts: 8409
Post Likes: +3662
Company: Aviation Tools / CCX
Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
Username Protected wrote:
Terry, maybe Mike is referring to the Williams interpretation. But see the later Stroik interpretation.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... tation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... tation.pdf


The Williams opinion says the TCDS references the unapproved MM so operators are not bound to follow it. Stroik says Williams isn't relevant since they are Part 135 and have to follow what their program says.

Neither of these addresses life limits in the TCDS or an FAA approved limitations section of the MM.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 22:15 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23613
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
I don't agree about Chapter 4. The life limits in Chapter 4 and the TCDS are FAA Approved.

I believe you are correct. Chapter 4 is FAA approved, nothing else in the MM is.

The statement in my 560 MM in chapter 4 is:

"The Airworthiness Limitations section is FAA-approved and gives inspections and maintenance procedures that are required by Parts 43.16 and 91.409 of Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations, unless an alternative program has been FAA-approved."

Quote:
So any changes in Chapter 4 constitute FAA action.

Seems so.

I didn't realize Chapter 4 had a different approval process than the rest of the MM.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2022, 21:58 
Offline



 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 6717
Post Likes: +7255
Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Thanks Terry!

Not many folks get Mike C. to admit he was wrong!

Thanks Mike for your humility.

_________________
It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 2098 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79 ... 140  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.ei-85x150.jpg.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.Marsh.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.AAI.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.daytona.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.midwest2.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.