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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2021, 13:32 
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Straight CJ - partially because I wanted to upgrade the cockpit to this.

I know the feeling:
Attachment:
n61gk-panel-1.jpg

But I wanted to go 420 KTAS, have 1900 nm range, have TRs for contaminated runways, and not pay the Williams tax. So I got a Citation V.

I do lack the GFC 600, but I hear rumors that will be coming in the next year or two. The SPZ 500 is doing well enough, but I will upgrade when it is available. I can remove 13 boxes when that happens, including the entire AC inverter system (the only AC devices are the Sperry FD/AP boxes).

Mike C.


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2021, 14:01 
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I flew to Chicago the other day, flight was delayed an hour and a half then the Budget rental car line was two hours long (they had one person working). I got in the car at 2am.... (I usually go to bed at 9). To add insult to injury, the next night I got stuck (parked) on the freeway for 3 hours so my six hour drive turned into 9 - got to bed at 2AM again.

The good news is that I was on my way to purchase an airplane. What a treat. We did the acceptance flight, took the plane to a tax-acceptable state for closing, ate lunch while the title company did the paperwork and flew home on my schedule.

I quickly found myself in cruise celebrating the delays I had on the way out, so lucky to be able to rise above (pun intended) the crap that most folks have to endure if they wish to or have to travel. The market is up so compared to where we were a few years ago, I paid more the for airplane. I struggled with that but I quickly recovered.

That's great, John! What's that saying..."Long after price is forgotten, quality is remembered"?

Car rentals are messed up this year. I spent almost 3 hours at Enterprise in Seattle this summer waiting for my car (I had made a reservation weeks before). No big line or anything. The car just wasn't ready to go.

But wait...I thought you already had a CJ2? Are you downsizing?

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2021, 14:26 
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Joined: 09/04/10
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Aircraft: C55, PC-12
Downsizing airplanes so I can invest in upsizing our business. I excited to fly the Garmin AP, I haven’t ever had Vnav before.

Mike, the V is very capable and I already miss going faster. I could argue for why I chose the CJ but in the end I think the V is a very smart buy.

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Phoenix, AZ
Ridgway, CO


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2021, 15:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
I could argue for why I chose the CJ

Two obvious ones are lower fuel flow and no single pilot exemption required.

I accept those negatives. Fuel flow is compensated by no Williams tax, and I don't mind the extra day of training for the SPE. Everything is a compromise.

I have been blown away by the short field capability of the V. It really uses a lot less runway than I expected. It is very rare the runway required exceeds 3000 ft in my use so far. Takeoff is 3160 ft, landing 2870 ft, at max weights, sea level, ISA. Given the range, I am often 2000-3000 lbs less than max.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2021, 15:30 
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Mike are you going to CJP this year?

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John Lockhart
Phoenix, AZ
Ridgway, CO


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2021, 20:06 
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Joined: 11/08/12
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Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
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Username Protected wrote:

I have been blown away by the short field capability of the V. It really uses a lot less runway than I expected. It is very rare the runway required exceeds 3000 ft in my use so far. Takeoff is 3160 ft, landing 2870 ft, at max weights, sea level, ISA.

Hmm, now you have me thinking…. Are those numbers the book numbers? Do they give you ground roll in addition?

What are the numbers like for, say, enough fuel for an 800nm trip, sea level takeoff, ISA+15?

If only I could get a bigger hangar…. :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2021, 21:16 
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Joined: 11/07/11
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Location: KBED, KCRE
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Username Protected wrote:
Straight CJ - partially because I wanted to upgrade the cockpit to this.

I know the feeling:
Attachment:
n61gk-panel-1.jpg

But I wanted to go 420 KTAS, have 1900 nm range, have TRs for contaminated runways, and not pay the Williams tax. So I got a Citation V.

I do lack the GFC 600, but I hear rumors that will be coming in the next year or two. The SPZ 500 is doing well enough, but I will upgrade when it is available. I can remove 13 boxes when that happens, including the entire AC inverter system (the only AC devices are the Sperry FD/AP boxes).

Mike C.

That came out great - what was the total downtime to get that done? And what's the hold up on the GFC 600? And is that a new glare shield that got installed with the contrast piping?

Chip-

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 00:04 
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Username Protected wrote:
Mike are you going to CJP this year?

Probably not, kind of busy with business and other matters, plus far away (Indian Wells, CA).

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 00:36 
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Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Hmm, now you have me thinking….

KSQL will be mighty tight and you will be buying tires and brakes a lot. I think it can be done, but a turboprop is better suited, I would think.

Quote:
Are those numbers the book numbers?

Yes, from the tables in the the AFM/checklist.

Assumes dry, flat runway. If it rains, well, better have another option handy, like KHWD and then Uber.

Quote:
Do they give you ground roll in addition?

No, but you can figure that out.

On landing, TCH is 50 ft. Touchdown is usually at the 1000 ft marker (which is the 3 degree slope). So you can take the landing distance and substract 1000 ft from it roughly for ground roll. If your TCH is 10 ft, then you save 800 ft. This assumes you bring throttles to idle at 50 ft AGL, of course, and slow on the last 50 ft of descent, since Vref at 10 ft would be too fast.

On takeoff, the distance is to 35 ft AGL, speed V2, after engine failure at V1. The climb to 35 ft AGL is about 600 ft of runway usage, typically. So the takeoff numbers are padded by that much. Also, two engine distance will be less.

The numbers do NOT include reverse thrust, so there is some padding there as well.

One thing to realize is that the safety built into the jet numbers is NOT also built into the turboprop generally. If your MU2 fails an engine near rotation speed, you are unlikely to keep it on the runway at KSQL and flying it away from rotation is dicey. The jet takeoff distance says you can do either.

Quote:
What are the numbers like for, say, enough fuel for an 800nm trip, sea level takeoff, ISA+15?

Let's assume that is 2600 lbs fuel, which should be close assuming cruise in the 40s, 1000 lbs reserve fuel, 500 lbs people and baggage, and 9250 lbs empty weight (my plane, lighter than most). Total takeoff weight is 13,350 lbs.

0 MSL, 30 C, no wind, flaps 15: 2580 ft total distance, estimated ground run 1980 ft (600 ft in the climb to 35 ft AGL and acceleration to V2).

V1 is 87 knots, VR is 95 knots, V2 is 103 knots.

Landing, assume just reserve fuel, landing weight 10,750 lbs.

0 MSL, 30 C, no wind, flaps land: 2163 ft total distance, estimated ground run 1163 ft.

Vref is 89 knots.

The distances are amazingly short, and seem achievable in real life based on my limited experience. The key are the slow speeds. Getting used to the really slow speeds on final is weird after flying the MU2.

Quote:
If only I could get a bigger hangar…. :scratch:

You need a major hangar for a Citation V. 52.5 ft wingspan, 48.9 ft long, 15.0 ft tall. Being a low wing, not much fits under or around the plane, either.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 00:43 
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That came out great - what was the total downtime to get that done?

3.5 months, but the last 6 weeks was entirely due to a supplier problem with one box, and air data adapter, so assuming normal processing, about 2 months. I did it at Columbia Avionics at KCOU, now Blackhawk.

Quote:
And what's the hold up on the GFC 600?

STC isn't done. Rumors are Garmin is about to start that process. The GFC 600 is the key to opening up Ultra and Encore to G700 TXi panels since the Honeywell Primus 1000 systems have the autopilot built into the display system. Thus you can't pull the heavy failure prone CRT displays without a replacement autopilot. The Citation V is the last type you can put G700 TXi panels in because it still has the SPZ 500 autopilot separate from the display system.

Quote:
And is that a new glare shield that got installed with the contrast piping?

Yes, part of the STC to relocate the caution panel to the glareshield. Much nicer to have it right there than amongst the main panel.

The caution system on the Citation V is really very good. Lots of good info there and very easy to see when something lights up.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 09:06 
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I am very actively into the market right now for a faster xc mount. Selling or not selling the 180 and 195 is simply not a consideration anymore as I have the permission, or should I say the acquiescence of "you know who".

I would love to know where this is going because in 49 years of aircraft buying and selling, this is the most **##@@ U# situation I have ever witnessed.

It is very difficult to make an orderly, intelligent, well-advised purchase because of numb nuts with a handful of money or financing rushing head long before you as if "buying" the airplane for too much money is an achievement.


Another way to look at it.... You have $500,000 currently invested in "aircraft". By paying too much for your XC machine you can sell your current ones for too much. That leaves you with $500,000 in "aircraft". Just moving the investment into a different ride.

Anything else you need to justify, I'm the king of justification. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 11:31 
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Joined: 11/25/11
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Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
Warren,

There used to be a drug dealer in town with a iridescent green/pink (depending on the angle you were looking at it) Ford Crown Victoria. He had a tag on the front bumper that said "So Many Women, So Little Time".

Do I need one that says "So Many Airplanes, So Little Time"? :eek:

Am I an airplane pimp? :scratch:

Or worse? :sad:

Jg

P.S. Someone shot the drug dealer. :ohno:

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 13:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
But I wanted to go 420 KTAS, have 1900 nm range, have TRs for contaminated runways, and not pay the Williams tax. So I got a Citation V.

I do lack the GFC 600, but I hear rumors that will be coming in the next year or two. The SPZ 500 is doing well enough, but I will upgrade when it is available. I can remove 13 boxes when that happens, including the entire AC inverter system (the only AC devices are the Sperry FD/AP boxes).

Mike C.


Why did you opt for the V instead of a II?


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 15:32 
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I am also a fan of the CJ for the upgrade reasons noted above. Was seriously looking at them six months ago then had a bit of a medical hiccup that slowed me down … the V is definitely a more capable aircraft however … will really be nice if Garmin does the GFC600 STC.


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 18:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
Why did you opt for the V instead of a II?

I did look at II seriously. Here are the reasons:

The V speeds for the II are about 10 knots faster, so runway usage is higher. The II wing is also slower at cruise. Net result is that the improved wing on the V is both slower and faster, a win at both ends of the envelope.

The II has less range and my objective was west coast non stop most of the time. The II will do west coast non stop about 20% of the time (basically winter tailwinds coming east, sometimes). The V will do west coast non stop 75% of the time (all except winter headwinds going west). The only single pilot capable plane that would do it non stop better would be an SII with Williams. Those are rare, have the despised TKS deice, and you pay the Williams tax.

The II is slower. I have regularly cruised at 420 KTAS in the V, mach 0.75. This makes me nearly as fast as the airliners (typically doing 0.78-0.80). I think the II is 50 knots slower and that's a huge difference.

The II ceiling is FL430, V is FL450. That can make a supposing difference in winter headwinds, sometimes as much as 20 knot less at FL450 versus FL430.

The V will have more useful load when loaded for the same trip length.

The dual electric motor bicycle chain flap drive system of the II is troublesome from reports I had. The hydraulic flaps on the V are much less so.

I did a comparison of an SII and a V for fuel efficiency using book numbers. To be fair, I flew the V 2000 ft higher (since it has the power to get there) and 500 lbs heavier (since its empty weight is higher) than the SII. Surprisingly, the fuel efficiency was about the same.

Here are my plots of speed (KTAS vertical axis) versus fuel flows (pph horizontal axis) for SII and V at FL350/370 and FL410/430:
Attachment:
image (7).png

Attachment:
image (8).png

As you can see, the red line (V) does pretty well, so no real penalty until you get very slow, which is bad news in a headwind anyway.

I didn't compare a II, but I suspect it is worse than an SII in efficiency.

I also reasoned that the maintenance effort for a V would be about as much as a II, maybe even worse due to higher age, so might as well have the better airplane.

I remember not considering the V due to thinking it was too big, too much fuel, etc. But on further analysis, it really isn't. The V has been described as the best legacy Citation and I think that may be true.

Mike C.


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