I'm thinking of a situation in which the airframe is so old that it needs repair work or expensive inspections. That would be hard to sell unless I put money into it to fix it. And let's say I don't want to spend the money.

Ok, extreme case: I crash the plane and wreck the airframe, but the engines are ok. What do I do with them?

Which shop?

Whoever said this doesn't understand the regulations and the responsibility and authority that the operator has versus the mechanic.

Mike C.

I'm thinking of a situation in which the airframe is so old that it needs repair work or expensive inspections. That would be hard to sell unless I put money into it to fix it. And let's say I don't want to spend the money.

Ok, extreme case: I crash the plane and wreck the airframe, but the engines are ok. What do I do with them?

I'm fairly certain you lose your program payments if you swap Williams engines from one airframe to another. At least that was the answer the lady gave me over the phone.

That's a problem if the airframe is no longer viable. With Williams, you essentially have the financial equivalent of freshly overhauled engines on your plane at all times.

Even if the airframe is viable, it could still be an issue when the market cools off. Say I own a 525 with a viable but outdated airframe that needs work. And the engines are 10 hours before TBO. When I sell, I want the price to reflect that of freshly overhauled engines. Why? Because after 10 hours, the buyer is going to be able to get freshly overhauled engines from Williams pretty much for free. Therefore I don't want to sell it for less than $1 million (the approximate price of two overhauled Williams engines). Same situation if I just took it into Williams and got the engines overhauled before I put it on the market.

However, maybe there's another 525 on the market with a nicer airframe competing with mine. As the engines are most of the price, that plane will be priced not much more than mine. In a tight market, my plane won't move.

In the case of a plane with engines not on programs, the selling price will be highly variable depending on the state of the engines. As a seller, that gives me a wider range of buyers looking at my plane.

I haven't heard back from Textron. West Star said "technically yes" but they wanted to do a little research before giving me an official answer.

I hope they'll forgive me for sharing this, I didn't tell them why I was asking because I didn't want to taint the response.

I almost said we needed a new thread for this... but then I realized this is like the fourth time we have gone over this same ground on four different threads.

Perhaps a slight deviation back to ranting about airplane shortages

....and a new thread about operating turbines past TBO?

That's a problem if the airframe is no longer viable. With Williams, you essentially have the financial equivalent of freshly overhauled engines on your plane at all times.

Even if the airframe is viable, it could still be an issue when the market cools off. Say I own a 525 with a viable but outdated airframe that needs work. And the engines are 10 hours before TBO. When I sell, I want the price to reflect that of freshly overhauled engines. Why? Because after 10 hours, the buyer is going to be able to get freshly overhauled engines from Williams pretty much for free. Therefore I don't want to sell it for less than $1 million (the approximate price of two overhauled Williams engines). Same situation if I just took it into Williams and got the engines overhauled before I put it on the market.

However, maybe there's another 525 on the market with a nicer airframe competing with mine. As the engines are most of the price, that plane will be priced not much more than mine. In a tight market, my plane won't move.

In the case of a plane with engines not on programs, the selling price will be highly variable depending on the state of the engines. As a seller, that gives me a wider range of buyers looking at my plane.

You get at most 2000 hours of FJ44 operation before you have to talk to Williams. That is the longest interval you can go without an HSI being required if off program.

At the end of those 2000 hours, you have engines that are essentially worthless. Williams will charge you more than the payments would have been to work on it. No sane buyer will purchase the aircraft with no engines to fly it.

The only exit plan for a non program engine is to treat the entire plane as disposable when you hit the Williams brick wall. A $1M plane disposed after 2000 hours is $500/hour amortization. That's more expensive than being on the program.

If you have Williams, you need to be on the program to preserve your value, or you intend to dispose of the airplane when a major engine event occurs. Those are the only two defensible strategies.

Mike C.

When oil is more than 100 dollars a barrel the low inventory problem will go away.

Is it true that phenom 300 runs pratts ?

If so, does that mean I could eventually buy one with runout engines, hsi and keep going?

Fingers crossed.

You get at most 2000 hours of FJ44 operation before you have to talk to Williams. That is the longest interval you can go without an HSI being required if off program.

At the end of those 2000 hours, you have engines that are essentially worthless. Williams will charge you more than the payments would have been to work on it. No sane buyer will purchase the aircraft with no engines to fly it.

The only exit plan for a non program engine is to treat the entire plane as disposable when you hit the Williams brick wall. A $1M plane disposed after 2000 hours is $500/hour amortization. That's more expensive than being on the program.

If you have Williams, you need to be on the program to preserve your value, or you intend to dispose of the airplane when a major engine event occurs. Those are the only two defensible strategies.

Mike C.

Yes. PW535’s

Yes. PW535’s

You get at most 2000 hours of FJ44 operation before you have to talk to Williams. That is the longest interval you can go without an HSI being required if off program.

At the end of those 2000 hours, you have engines that are essentially worthless. Williams will charge you more than the payments would have been to work on it. No sane buyer will purchase the aircraft with no engines to fly it.

The only exit plan for a non program engine is to treat the entire plane as disposable when you hit the Williams brick wall. A $1M plane disposed after 2000 hours is $500/hour amortization. That's more expensive than being on the program.

If you have Williams, you need to be on the program to preserve your value, or you intend to dispose of the airplane when a major engine event occurs. Those are the only two defensible strategies.

Mike C.