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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 00:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
Could we all agree that the newest SF50 "sucks less"?

No, they claim it "blows" more.

To put it another way, Cirrus took 4 years to fix bad FADEC programming that limited performance. This is heralded as "innovation" by the aviation press and Cirrus advocates.

And, oh, they added a Wifi box they bought from someone else.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 01:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
Could we all agree that the newest SF50 "sucks less"?

No, they claim it "blows" more.

To put it another way, Cirrus took 4 years to fix bad FADEC programming that limited performance. This is heralded as "innovation" by the aviation press and Cirrus advocates.

And, oh, they added a Wifi box they bought from someone else.

Mike C.


Or they had something set conservatively that they now know can be pushed a bit since they have years of fleet operational data. Happens on every engine program over time.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 01:03 
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I'd be a little annoyed if asked to pay 148k for a software update.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 01:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don't understand this quote:

"Most significant is a software change to the full-authority digital engine control (FADEC) that extends the amount of time the Williams international FJ33 can maintain higher takeoff and climb power settings by up to 5 minutes. The change improves runway performance between 4 and 20 percent, according to Matt Bergwall,"

It implies the takeoff thrust maximum was NOT changed, only the time allowed for it to be used.

Assuming the prior time limit for takeoff thrust actually lasted long enough to takeoff, how does giving you more minutes after that shorten the takeoff roll?

Something doesn't compute here. The only way to reduce takeoff roll with the same weight is to increase thrust. That isn't what they said the change was. The TCDS has not been updated with this change, thus the engine is still 1846 lbf max thrust.

So how did runway performance improve 4 to 20 percent with no increase in thrust?

The article further states:

"A flight departing Santa Fe, New Mexico, on a 31-degree Celsius day at MTOW with a 10-knot headwind will use about 3,000 feet of runway compared to the current book performance of 4,100 feet, according to Cirrus."

That's a huge change. What magic is this?

Mike C.



It's not magic Mike.

They revised the operating limits so you can command more power in take off and climb under certain conditions, (but) it is limited to 5 minutes or less.

Just like the Piper Seneca III vs. Seneca II. They changed the suffix letter of the engine, gave the engines 15 more horsepower each by raising the maximum RPM, then said you only got that extra power for 5 minutes. Same exact engines, same exact props. The only differences is the paperwork, the limit on the prop governor and the fuel flow setup.

The "magic" on the G2+ is in the marketing-speak of the time limit on the additional power available. There's now 100+x% power available, but it is time-limited. I would venture that the time limit varies with temperature and the amount of power selected.


https://cirrusaircraft.app.box.com/s/k1 ... 6241460646

Link to press release and this is the key sentence:

Quote:
“The enhancements to both the take-off performance capabilities in hot and high conditions ...


More power in hot and high conditions. For up to 5 minutes.

But, that's actually not a bad thing, is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 03:36 
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Hot and high performance in this airplane was a dealbreaker for many. Flying out of Denver at 10000ft density altitude was a non starter before and now you can. This is either a small upgrade or a game changer depending on where you fly.

I don’t get the haters. They are selling as many as they can build.

Also stop pre-ordering / putting down deposits and expecting special treatment other than getting it first. I was an early Tesla adopter and my car has an older style heater than the newer ones with the heat pump and I can’t retrofit it. I got it first, Tesla kept my money interest free, and there’s no logic to it other than I wanted it first. It’s an emotional thing and I don’t regret it. I don’t think cirrus needs to figure out a way to engineer new stuff into the first planes because lots of excited people wanted to be first.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 08:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
Cirrus smoke and mirrors, infinitesimal improvement and Cirrus shouts its a NEW UPDATED model. Same wine, remarked old bottle.

Everyone forgets Cirrus is a marketing company that happens to glue together airplanes. I just wish PT Barnum was here to enjoy the show.

With all the new and improved performance i am sure Cirrus has asked the FAA for a new type rating, surely it wont be the same, it just cant be, its revolutionary!!


Agreed! They should innovate more. You know, like Beechcrafessna does with the Bonanza.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 08:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don’t get the haters.

Use the word "critic" instead. You don't have the right to call other people names just because they don't agree with you.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 08:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
They revised the operating limits so you can command more power in take off and climb under certain conditions, (but) it is limited to 5 minutes or less.

Okay, but the engine ratings did not change, so the peak thrust is not different. How does that get 4% less runway used?

Quote:
Just like the Piper Seneca III vs. Seneca II. They changed the suffix letter of the engine, gave the engines 15 more horsepower each by raising the maximum RPM, then said you only got that extra power for 5 minutes. Same exact engines, same exact props. The only differences is the paperwork, the limit on the prop governor and the fuel flow setup.

The engine rating changed. That is in the TCDS.

That isn't the case with the FJ33. At least , not so far indicated.

Quote:
More power in hot and high conditions. For up to 5 minutes.

But, that's actually not a bad thing, is it?

At some point, it is. The plane is now closer to that point, or maybe slightly beyond it.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 09:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
Or they had something set conservatively that they now know can be pushed a bit since they have years of fleet operational data.

More likely they got complaints as to the lack luster performance in high and hot, and then marketing pushed for a change that eroded engine margins to fix that. I do not believe this was entirely an engineering based decision.

The idea this came from field data is suspect. The FJ33 is basically an FJ44, so Williams has LOTS of field data before it ever appeared in the SF50, so the limits now available should have been easily provided then.

I don't think there is really a lot of field data of the type you really need. Setting higher temps in the engine takes much longer study. Have ANY SF50 been through even the first hot section? Without that, how can you make ANY determination as to what engine margins you can erode?

How much more expensive will hot sections and overhaul be because of this? They certainly won't be cheaper.

Quote:
Happens on every engine program over time.

That's clearly not true. Reprogramming fielded FADEC units to provide higher power and lower engine margins occurs very infrequently.

Basically, the SF50 is marginally underpowered despite having more total thrust than the Eclipse, a twin jet of the same weight. The Eclipse goes higher, faster, burns less fuel, goes longer range, uses less runway. The typical advantages a piston single has over its twin counterpart simply do not exist in the jet world, in fact, the twin is the more efficient plane by far.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 09:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'd be a little annoyed if asked to pay 148k for a software update.


Tell that to Honeywell tooo!!!!!!
no way I'm paying 75k for synthetic vision, albeit very good synthetic vision!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 10:47 
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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 11:10 
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Agreed! They should innovate more. You know, like Beechcrafessna does with the Bonanza.[/quote]


Beechcrafessna - That's funny and sad at the same time. Reminds me of GE and how to completely decimate an iconic brand.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 11:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
They are selling as many as they can build.

Yes they are - as others have pointed out, Textron handed the single piston aircraft market to Cirrus. Try to order a new Bonanza or Baron and watch Textron stumble and stammer.

I don’t think cirrus needs to figure out a way to engineer new stuff into the first planes because lots of excited people wanted to be first.


I agree Cirrus does not figure out a way to engineer new stuff into their aircraft and i agree there are a lot of excited people who want to be first. That does not mean the rest of us will believe the marketing wank and want to cheer because Cirrus bought someone else's wifi and stuck it in the aircraft, or remapped the FADEC and called it a feature not a foul up.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 11:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
They are selling as many as they can build.

Yes they are - as others have pointed out, Textron handed the single piston aircraft market to Cirrus. Try to order a new Bonanza or Baron and watch Textron stumble and stammer.

I don’t think cirrus needs to figure out a way to engineer new stuff into the first planes because lots of excited people wanted to be first.


I agree Cirrus does not figure out a way to engineer new stuff into their aircraft and i agree there are a lot of excited people who want to be first. That does not mean the rest of us will believe the marketing wank and want to cheer because Cirrus bought someone else's wifi and stuck it in the aircraft, or remapped the FADEC and called it a feature not a foul up.

Anthony,

Although perhaps unintended, you sound angry about this. Why?

You have a great airplane, and you definitely do not need to buy an SF-50.
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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2021, 12:03 
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For the Citation 500/501, didn't they redesignate the JT15D-1A as a JT15D-1B (even though it was the same engine) to let it run at higher N1 - at the cost of 500 hours less TBO?

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