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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2021, 18:52 
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This thread is no longer any fun. Looking forward to checking back in on it after the new performance charts are published.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2021, 20:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
I find it humorous that most of the criticism about this aircraft have been or are being improved and addressed.

It can't get worse, so there is only one direction to go.
Mike C.


Bet you are a blast at parties.

Meanwhile, Cirrus is selling these airplanes as fast as they can build them. And Eclipse is out of business.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2021, 21:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
Bet you are a blast at parties.

Meanwhile, Cirrus is selling these airplanes as fast as they can build them. And Eclipse is out of business.

Mike has hated Cirrus for many years. There's something personal there.

Go back through the old posts...it's...questionable???

Here's the start...

search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&author_id=32700&start=13440

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2021, 21:20 
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Except the thrust lever is just the FADEC suggestion box.


OK, this has me chuckling away to myself. I hadn't heard that line before but wow is it hitting close to the truth! :D :cheers:


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2021, 22:08 
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Mike - we don’t know what the fadec ramp to max power looked like at sea level. Seems like they could have changed the curve to getting to max thrust sooner - eg - spool engine to higher thrust before ram air rise.

Or, they could have been getting the 4% on 110 degree days at sea level.


I don’t get this one, are you suggesting more thrust for the same N1? As far as I know, barring any physical modifications to inlets and exhausts, or changes to the scheduling of variable angle vanes (which I am unaware if they exist in this engine), you can only get more thrust from more N1- which means more N2 (and more fuel, more heat, etc). It’s the same as me reaching up and pressing G/A on my TMSP when CRZ was previously selected, suddenly my FADEC goes to a new higher N1 with the levers to the limit. As was said above, if all you do is reprogram the TMSP/FADEC/etc to allow for higher limits, you’re just reducing margins and/or potentially reducing service life.

Am I wrong in thinking this is analogous to painting a new redline on a tachometer with no other associated changes?


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2021, 23:11 
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Mike has hated Cirrus for many years. There's something personal there.

I don't hate Cirrus, I just wish they would make better decisions.

The SR series is a fine airplane. The chute is not nearly the safety advantage claimed and can have negative impact on safety.

The SF50 is a terrible jet from a performance standpoint, knowable before they ever built it. Cirrus is poisoned by its single engine religion which prevented it from building a proper jet. If Cirrus had built something similar to the Eclipse, it would have been much faster to market and outperformed the SF50 by leaps and bounds. That would have been a jet that truly changed the world.

Cirrus advocates tend to view anyone not as blindly enthused as they are as a "hater". It is a coping mechanism so they can dismiss any criticism easily.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2021, 23:23 
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If someone is looking to spend under 3m for a brand new airplane, what are your choices... SF50, M600, Cessna 208 Caravan... maybe a few folks drop down to something like a DA62 or a G58. Did I miss one?

[youtube]https://youtu.be/t1ews3FV2fk[/youtube]

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2021, 02:00 
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I wonder if they put a much more powerful engine in it that could achieve FL410, would the fuel savings from flying higher offset the extra fuel comsumption of the larger engine? I'm thinking probably not.

The SF50 already has more thrust than the Eclipse 500 with the same weight which suggests it can aerodynamically reach FL410 already.

If the SF50 can't make it to FL410 aerodynamically, then it exposes how inefficient the design is and the engine isn't the problem.

Even if it needed a bigger engine, I expect the SF50 would save fuel flying higher. There is a pretty big change in fuel efficiency between FL310 and FL410 for jets.

Mike C.

We had a saying in the RF business that "there is no radio engineering problem that cannot be solved by the use of more power."

Not sure this concept totally transfers to aerodynamics. True, looking at the charts for the 501 as an example there is a 40% improvement in nm/lb from FL 310 to 410 at the same TAS (with the same engines of course). However, bigger engine for the VJ means more weight. More power means temptation to cob it and fly faster at altitude. So I'm thinking the nm/lbs isn't going to be much better. But at least it will get there faster.

In any event, if Cirrus wants to keep the single-engine jet concept, I think they will have to super-size everything. Bigger engine, bigger (more efficient) wing, bigger fuel tanks, etc. Oh, bigger parachute too.
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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2021, 08:16 
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Maybe someone with an Eclipse can comment but I thought they slowed down quite a bit at FL410? My guess is small wing bites you up there. I think it only does 370kts in the low 30s. Mike - if this is the case you are starting to suffer from Cirrus-speak - two claims in one sentence that can’t exist at the same time :)

I predict Cirrus will get up to FL340 within a few years. That will be how they get better range at speed. The Epic 1000 is certified to Fl340, which, if you bothered to read the 1000 page original Vision Jet thread is impossible for a single engine certified plane, yet, they did it somehow.

I wish they would jet call it the Vision ‘plane’ so people would stop comparing it other jets. Even comparing it to an Eclipse is silly. Had they made the cabin 50% smaller, I am sure the Vision would go faster. From a passenger perspective it is so much better than any SETP imo. One thing the Piaggio taught me is that size matters for pax comfort.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2021, 08:28 
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Username Protected wrote:

Agreed! They should innovate more. You know, like Beechcrafessna does with the Bonanza.


Now that's funny.

As said in another Cirrus bashing thread, Cirrus Bashing diminish the credibility of all content on this forum, and impunes the integrity and intelligence of all participants by association.

I opened this thread because I am genuinely interested in how Cirrus is continuing to excite their customers and grow the aviation industry. (How many new Bo/Barons were delivered last year?)

I would probably not buy a Vision jet, but I can absolutely understand why many pilots would.

This kind of crap makes me wonder why I spend my time here.


No truer posted ever made on BT.

Jg
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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2021, 08:36 
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Mike has hated Cirrus for many years. There's something personal there.

Go back through the old posts...it's...questionable???

Here's the start...

search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&author_id=32700&start=13440


It's obsessive for sure. Almost bordering on needed intervention.

If that fails there is always an Internet restraining order. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2021, 08:38 
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There is one thing that Cirrus Aircraft is doing well and that is providing the highest level of training for its customers. In the SF50 Vision Jet it is not an option in that the type rating is only offered in Knoxville. It is a high quality program and no one get's a " rubber stamped" type rating. If you don't pass you go in for more training- or you don't get it.
How many crashes, incidents etc. would have been avoided had the new owner or pilot received a thorough initial training sponsored by the manufacturer and a sign off based on an objective analysis?
I post this only because Cirrus does get a lot of criticism on this Forum and doesn't get enough credit for those things they do so well.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2021, 08:49 
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Maybe someone with an Eclipse can comment but I thought they slowed down quite a bit at FL410? My guess is small wing bites you up there. I think it only does 370kts in the low 30s. Mike - if this is the case you are starting to suffer from Cirrus-speak - two claims in one sentence that can’t exist at the same time :)


Our Phenom is 70 knots faster at FL310 than at FL410. I don't think the M2 loses nearly as much speed if I'm remembering right from our demo flight.

Chip-


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2021, 08:55 
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How many crashes, incidents etc. would have been avoided had the new owner or pilot received a thorough initial training sponsored by the manufacturer and a sign off based on an objective analysis?

Too bad this wasn't the strategy when the SR series was first introduced. Instead, the marketing department created an aura of invincibility with the chute and the accident record reflected that.

The training program Cirrus implemented in 2012 had a significant impact on the accident rate. Pilot training is once again shown to be the most effective safety strategy, better than any gadget on the plane itself.

It is good to see the type rating for the SF50 is very thorough. This will basically obviate the need for the chute. There doesn't seem to be any meaningful reduction in training effort due to the airplane being a single.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus Vision G2+ announced today
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2021, 10:09 
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Wait a minute...I think it's coming to me...

Gentlemen, I present to you the Cirrus SF-50 G3!

It even looks like a single-engine Citation! Mike, how could you not love it?


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

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