25 Apr 2024, 02:34 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 02 Aug 2021, 10:48 |
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Joined: 01/31/12 Posts: 3094 Post Likes: +5448 Company: French major Location: France
Aircraft: Ejet
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Yuri, please do consider that if we are telling you this is not as easy as it looks, possibly, it isn't.
I've done the whole 24/7 thing. It's maddening. Even variations of it are exhausting: when I used to fly survey, I left one day early march for what was supposed to be 3 weeks, and came back 6 months later.
It's not that you "work less". When you say "work", you mean "fly". But that's not the only part of work. I consider myself "off" when I don't have to think about work. So even if I was only flying 300hrs/year, I was always at work, because every morning I would have to check whether we could fly or not, and the other duties that we had...and then maybe then, around 10, I could consider that it's a "day off". Except it was not, because my mind was always thinking about work. Exhausting.
That's no way to live a normal life. Now granted I got to do some pretty amazing stuff that only a very small number of people will ever do in their life, but at the price of sacrificing my private life.
Because you will NOT be able to schedule anything. At the moment I fly for a very, very good airline. The benefits are great, the money pretty good, only 18 days on, and a guarantee of a block of 5 days off every month. Awesome.
Except the roster is published every friday, for the week 21 days away. So on January 1st, I'll see what I'll do for the next 3 weeks, then on January 8th, I'll have the schedule for January 29th, etc. A rolling schedule, perfectly legal, and 3 weeks in advance!
Well it's driving me crazy. You live your life waiting for every friday to see what is going to happen. Can I book that concert ticket? Nope it's in 2 months, I have no idea what I'll do. 3 weeks before, it's all booked. Can I go to that wedding? Not sure, please wait until 3 weeks before so I can tell you!
And that is still much better than when I was on call! Today I fly 7-800hrs (in a non-covid year, though I flew about 400hrs last year), but with a roster, and I definitely consider that I work much much less than when I was doing 200 or 300hrs on call. But I can't wait to be at AF where on day 15 of the month, we get the schedule for the whole month after. Much easier.
_________________ Singham!
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 02 Aug 2021, 12:41 |
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Joined: 12/07/17 Posts: 7038 Post Likes: +5807 Company: Malco Power Design Location: KLVJ
Aircraft: 1976 Baron 58
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Username Protected wrote: Except the roster is published every friday, for the week 21 days away. So on January 1st, I'll see what I'll do for the next 3 weeks, then on January 8th, I'll have the schedule for January 29th, etc. A rolling schedule, perfectly legal, and 3 weeks in advance!
Well it's driving me crazy. You live your life waiting for every friday to see what is going to happen. Can I book that concert ticket? Nope it's in 2 months, I have no idea what I'll do. 3 weeks before, it's all booked. Can I go to that wedding? Not sure, please wait until 3 weeks before so I can tell you!
Do you not also get scheduled vacation? Yes you find out what the schedule gods give you three weeks in advance, but don’t you also have personal leave / pto / vacation that can be scheduled well in advance and approved by management? I’m genuinely curious as the airline pilot gig is my plan for a retirement side hustle.
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 02 Aug 2021, 13:21 |
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Joined: 01/31/12 Posts: 3094 Post Likes: +5448 Company: French major Location: France
Aircraft: Ejet
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So all this is very specific to this airline, and as you mention, it's one of the more important aspects of your every day life...So it's good to ask before you sign the dotted line.
At the moment, with this airline (but it was the same at the UK regional I used to work for), for holidays it's per IATA season, so twice a year. You ask for XX days off, if you ask for monday to friday, the airline will give you the weekend before or after. So holiday requests are made in June for the period between Nov 1st and March 31st.
Results are known 2 months later. Based on seniority, base, needs, etc... you either: -get the days off you asked -they are refused but the company offers other dates (which you can accept or refuse) -or some are simply refused.
What's important to know is that we work 18 on/12 off. And I am allowed a certain number of holidays in France, but they are included in the 12 off, it's not like I have an extra 45 days off. The difference is that I get to choose when that 5-day-off block is.
Then you can have "desiderata days", if you need a specific day after the holiday bidding, in which case you must ask before the 15th of the N-2 month, and you will only know if it is approved when the roster is published, so 3 weeks before.
Part time is nearly impossible to get because it's mostly on seniority.
And ultimately if you really need that day off, you can always try and switch a particular day with a coworker, but that is quite difficult to do at the moment: FTL limits, plus with covid aid package the airline has a lot of restrictions, like we need to all have about the same amount of hours, etc...
It's a big, BIG Rube Goldberg machine. When you join an airline, you're going to spend a lot of time in the operations manual. Then a LOT more time trying to understand how your roster is set up, and the holiday system, seniority, etc... The best thing is to ask a captain with a lot of seniority to walk you through all this, and the earlier, the better. Because messing up a campaign means waiting 6 months for the next, and your life will suck.
Don't get me wrong, it's manageable, and it provides more stability. It's also pretty nice compared to survey/on call 24/7. I miss the technical aspect of survey, but I will happily choose an 50k airline job with a proper roster over a 200k, on-call flying job.
edit: just to say that when you decide to make the jump, in my opinion, completely forget the airplane that the airline is flying. Yes, look at whether they are doing short or long-haul (if that's what you fancy), and the destinations, sure. Of course if they have more modern planes (Ejet, A220, a350/b787), it's easier. Fast upgrade is a major plus.
But the novelty of the plane will quickly fade away, and good colleagues, with a nice roster, stable terms and conditions, will trump an extra 50k a year, easily. Spend a lot of time asking your future colleagues about that!
_________________ Singham!
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 02 Aug 2021, 14:41 |
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Joined: 11/22/08 Posts: 2923 Post Likes: +928 Company: USAF Propulsion Laboratory Location: Dayton, OH
Aircraft: PA24, AEST 680, 421
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Fabien, that scheduling process makes my head hurt. Yuck!
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 02 Aug 2021, 17:14 |
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Joined: 12/30/09 Posts: 868 Post Likes: +638
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Username Protected wrote: If you really want a job like that, for that pay, give me a call. I have a PIC jet type rating with your name on it, and I’d be glad to have you 24/7/365 for 80K.
I can guarantee that you will know by 3 pm if you fly the next day. If I don’t need you, you are off and won’t be bothered. I also guarantee that within 6 months you will be whining about the schedule and within 2 years you will leave for a regional because you’ve built enough time to not be 24/7/365.
Rinse and repeat. You even get a number of vacation days that you can use, so it’s not really 24/7/365.
If you’d do that for 80k, put your money where your mouth is.
Let’s go.
Brad
Call me back in 5 years please. Right now I make way, way more in my IT job, and I need the money. But I am hoping to be able to retire from it in 5 years or so when I hit 60, and when I do, I'd love a job like that for a semi-retirement gig.
But in your response to me you said “If I could trade my 9 to 5 office job for a job where I only have to fly somewhere once or twice a week, with the caveat that I have to be at the airport at 6 am next morning if I get a call by 10 pm, I'd be all over that job.”
Why the change of heart when I offered, you said anybody would jump at the job.
Brad
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 02 Aug 2021, 23:20 |
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Joined: 12/10/07 Posts: 8021 Post Likes: +6943 Location: New York, NY
Aircraft: Debonair C33A
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Username Protected wrote: Yuri, please do consider that if we are telling you this is not as easy as it looks, possibly, it isn't.
I've done the whole 24/7 thing. It's maddening. Even variations of it are exhausting: when I used to fly survey, I left one day early march for what was supposed to be 3 weeks, and came back 6 months later.
It's not that you "work less". When you say "work", you mean "fly". But that's not the only part of work. I consider myself "off" when I don't have to think about work. So even if I was only flying 300hrs/year, I was always at work, because every morning I would have to check whether we could fly or not, and the other duties that we had...and then maybe then, around 10, I could consider that it's a "day off". Except it was not, because my mind was always thinking about work. Exhausting.
If uncertainty bothers you so much, you'd hate to work in IT, where we are on call all the time, every day. And when that call comes in, it's not "you have to be at work tomorrow morning", it's "drop everything and get on the computer RIGHT NOW". Doesn't matter if you are at the concert or at the wedding. I get it, some folks have to plan everything months in advance, and for them the on-call life would suck. Me - I like to live in the spur of the moment. Three weeks plan? That's about two weeks too far.
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 02 Aug 2021, 23:30 |
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Joined: 12/10/07 Posts: 8021 Post Likes: +6943 Location: New York, NY
Aircraft: Debonair C33A
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Username Protected wrote: But in your response to me you said “If I could trade my 9 to 5 office job for a job where I only have to fly somewhere once or twice a week, with the caveat that I have to be at the airport at 6 am next morning if I get a call by 10 pm, I'd be all over that job.”
Why the change of heart when I offered, you said anybody would jump at the job.
That statement was on the assumption that the pay would be the same for both jobs. And I did not say "anybody" would jump at the job, I said many people would. There are plenty of pilots who make $70-80K, and for them this would be a great gig.
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 03 Aug 2021, 08:46 |
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Joined: 05/10/09 Posts: 3610 Post Likes: +2572 Company: On the wagon Location: Overland Park, KS (KLXT)
Aircraft: 1978 Baron 58
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Username Protected wrote: If you ask about the best place to fly into near Dallas for a meeting, page 16 of the thread will still be joyfully debating West Texas vs KC barbeque That "debate" wouldn't last very long.
_________________ Stop in flyover country and have some BBQ!
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 03 Aug 2021, 09:44 |
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Joined: 08/14/13 Posts: 6074 Post Likes: +4651
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Username Protected wrote: If you ask about the best place to fly into near Dallas for a meeting, page 16 of the thread will still be joyfully debating West Texas vs KC barbeque That "debate" wouldn't last very long.
Once Carolina BBQ was introduced?
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 03 Aug 2021, 10:41 |
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Joined: 08/24/13 Posts: 8463 Post Likes: +3713 Company: Aviation Tools / CCX Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
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Username Protected wrote: Once Carolina BBQ was introduced? There is no debate (Houston native here)
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 03 Aug 2021, 11:26 |
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Joined: 11/21/09 Posts: 11898 Post Likes: +14671 Location: Albany, TX
Aircraft: Prior SR22T,V35B,182
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Username Protected wrote: If you ask about the best place to fly into near Dallas for a meeting, page 16 of the thread will still be joyfully debating West Texas vs KC barbeque That "debate" wouldn't last very long. Is there a debate? Nobody should answer until they've been to Lockhart. Heck, if you really want to know, simply Google: BBQ Capital of the World
Although The Salt Lick in Driftwood is my favorite.
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 03 Aug 2021, 11:35 |
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Joined: 08/10/14 Posts: 1734 Post Likes: +832 Location: Northwest Arkansas (KVBT)
Aircraft: TBM850
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Username Protected wrote: One thing is for sure, people are buying the Vision Jet. There are now 3 in my hangar and two SR22. I walked in there today and wondered if a Cirrus dealer took over the hangar.
Still more Cessna jets in our hangar than Cirrus. A XLS, M2, Mustang, and my 501. Plus Phenom 300 and an eclipse. We have a good group of smaller jets in there.
Mike Any indication if the Vision jets are owner-flown?
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 04 Aug 2021, 07:54 |
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Joined: 09/09/13 Posts: 343 Post Likes: +438 Location: Ballarat, Australia
Aircraft: C177rg
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This thread was really interesting until it was hijacked by the inane argument about whether there is a business case for a business to own its own plane and the cost of hiring pilots.
You don’t have to be Einstein to figure out that for some businesses it works well to own a plane but for others it wouldn’t. To suggest a one size fits all answer is silly.
It is also disturbing to see posts that are bordering on abuse. Can’t we let each of us to decide what works for him or her and why without trying to force our views on others. It’s fine to disagree, but let’s keep it courteous.
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 04 Aug 2021, 09:35 |
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Joined: 12/10/07 Posts: 8021 Post Likes: +6943 Location: New York, NY
Aircraft: Debonair C33A
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Username Protected wrote: You don’t have to be Einstein to figure out that for some businesses it works well to own a plane but for others it wouldn’t. To suggest a one size fits all answer is silly.
Did someone suggest that? I must have missed it.
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