25 Apr 2024, 03:08 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 23 Jul 2021, 16:32 |
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Joined: 08/03/10 Posts: 1562 Post Likes: +1781 Company: D&M Leasing Houston Location: Katy, TX (KTME)
Aircraft: CitationV/C180
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Username Protected wrote: Mike, take away your passion for flying and look at it rationally: would any time-challenged business owner in their right mind want to spend the same time that you've just spent on getting SPE in the V to be able to use it as a tool? No, it's simply not time-efficient. We're relying entirely in aviation on that passion to sustain that self-flagellation. Eventually, with ever-increasing demands in the name of safety, you'll even run out of passionate people willing to put up with it. Yeah....this just isn't the case. Most business owners that can afford to fly PC-12's or Citations have built businesses that run without them through the support of well trained teams. A business owner that can't make time for the training in a V or PC-12 should reconsider in my opinion. A first class ticket or even charter would not require the time needed to train and would even allow one to get some work done in the back during the flight. Owners of these types of planes I suspect are justifying them with some business use but in reality the training and trips taken are just as much about getting away from work.
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 24 Jul 2021, 09:17 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2539 Post Likes: +1264
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Username Protected wrote: Wouid be interesting to hear from Max CitationMax as he goes on YT. He has flown the Vision jet, then upgraded to M2, and now flying a CJ3.
I bet he has some good insight. I saw a YT video he posted about the VJ but didn’t watch it.
Mike Max is rarely outwardly critical of anything, so you have to read between the lines. I gathered that he initially thought the VJ was "cool" because it was a major step up from the piston he was flying before, but he quickly became disenchanted with its low speed/climb rate/max altitude (and being treated like a TP by ATC). He also expressed his concern in one video of the possibility of a bird being sucked in the (only) engine. We ultimately learned that Max's end-game was to fly his father from NY to Bermuda, so it was a foregone conclusion that the VJ was not going to cut it. Even the M2 didn't cut it.
_________________ Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 24 Jul 2021, 09:25 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2539 Post Likes: +1264
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Username Protected wrote: Could they have tuned engine for lower altitude?
Yes. It's called a turboprop.
_________________ Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 24 Jul 2021, 09:50 |
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Joined: 07/11/11 Posts: 2252 Post Likes: +2215 Location: Queretaro / Woodlands
Aircraft: C525 BE40 D1K Waco
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Username Protected wrote: Mike, take away your passion for flying and look at it rationally: would any time-challenged business owner in their right mind want to spend the same time that you've just spent on getting SPE in the V to be able to use it as a tool? No, it's simply not time-efficient. We're relying entirely in aviation on that passion to sustain that self-flagellation. Eventually, with ever-increasing demands in the name of safety, you'll even run out of passionate people willing to put up with it. Yeah....this just isn't the case. Most business owners that can afford to fly PC-12's or Citations have built businesses that run without them through the support of well trained teams. A business owner that can't make time for the training in a V or PC-12 should reconsider in my opinion. A first class ticket or even charter would not require the time needed to train and would even allow one to get some work done in the back during the flight. Owners of these types of planes I suspect are justifying them with some business use but in reality the training and trips taken are just as much about getting away from work. I agree with James 100% - if you run a business and don’t have the teams to support you to take the time required for training, you need to re-evaluate how your business is run. Furthermore, if you see training as “self-flagellation”, you picked the wrong “hobby”.
There are business leaders who choose to go on yoga retreats in the mountains every year - I choose to go to training.
There is also what the training and flying bring to your leadership skills - here’s an interesting article published a while ago: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-connec ... 1487080800
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 24 Jul 2021, 13:04 |
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Joined: 01/30/09 Posts: 3355 Post Likes: +1963 Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
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Username Protected wrote: Max is rarely outwardly critical of anything, so you have to read between the lines. I gathered that he initially thought the VJ was "cool" because it was a major step up from the piston he was flying before, but he quickly became disenchanted with its low speed/climb rate/max altitude (and being treated like a TP by ATC). He also expressed his concern in one video of the possibility of a bird being sucked in the (only) engine.
We ultimately learned that Max's end-game was to fly his father from NY to Bermuda, so it was a foregone conclusion that the VJ was not going to cut it. Even the M2 didn't cut it. If you need a CJ3, there's little doubt you'd be unsatisfied with anything less, M2, or VJ or a SR22T or a Lockwood AirCam. Having flown the M2 and the VJ, they're very different animals. The reason to have either are very different and what one can reasonably expect from either is very different. The SF50 VisionJet fits right into the same range as SETP. Arguments are valid for anything in that range, but honestly, I found the SF50 more comfortable than anything in its range. If your spouse refuses to get on anything with a propeller, there ya go. Perfect reason.
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 24 Jul 2021, 17:15 |
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Joined: 08/23/10 Posts: 849 Post Likes: +661
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Why are we comparing an SF50 to a CJ3 that costs 2.5x? The SF50 should be compared to the M600 and E1000. The Eclipse would probably cost around $3M today, but since you can’t buy a new one and there is no factory support that isn’t a reasonable comparison. The SF50 competes well with the M600 and E1000. Just depends on ones mission and desired factory support resources and certainty of existence.
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 24 Jul 2021, 17:24 |
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Joined: 06/28/09 Posts: 14153 Post Likes: +9100 Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
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Username Protected wrote: The SF50 should be compared to the M600 and E1000. Exactly, and the cabin is far superior in the Cirrus and it's quieter.
_________________ http://calipilot.com atp/cfii
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 24 Jul 2021, 18:49 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: would any time-challenged business owner in their right mind want to spend the same time that you've just spent on getting SPE in the V to be able to use it as a tool? No, it's simply not time-efficient. You could say the same for a College education. There is utility in investing time into a capability that then becomes useful at some critical moment. Quote: We're relying entirely in aviation on that passion to sustain that self-flagellation. You are incorrect for many, so don't assume your inability to make aviation work applies to others. You also forget the time I am saving for my passengers. Just did a business trip in the V that would have cost 5 man days more than using airlines and FedEx. It changed a 4 day trip into a 2 day trip and greatly eased the effort to move the materials used in the project. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 24 Jul 2021, 18:57 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: As to the burden, for the rather large group of pilots who fly 25-40 hours per year, a couple hours of training would likely add 10% to their annual flying budget and that's enough that it would be burdensome. Those pilots are EXACTLY the ones who need the training. Their insurance might already prescribe it anyway. If we cut down accidents, they may save the 10% in premiums. Less accidents means less cost for all of us. Being under budget but dead isn't of much use. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 24 Jul 2021, 21:57 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6359 Post Likes: +5544 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: Just did a business trip in the V that would have cost 5 man days more than using airlines and FedEx. It changed a 4 day trip into a 2 day trip and greatly eased the effort to move the materials used in the project.
Mike C.
No you didn't. Not when you factor in your training cost and purchase costs. You could have flown them on Emirates First class via Maldives for less. And you've spent 6 months training for a trip that saved you 2 days. You're simply neglecting the part which is (and has been) my whole point: you're personal interest in it. And the clouding that does to your rationalization. It's OK to love flying. But let's be truthful about how much time and money it saves.
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 24 Jul 2021, 22:41 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: No you didn't. Sure did. Saved 5 man days for my employees. Quote: But let's be truthful about how much time and money it saves. You should heed you own words and stop assuming what you know about others. The fact you can't make it work says something about you, but the rest of the world may be different. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 24 Jul 2021, 23:41 |
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Joined: 07/27/13 Posts: 129 Post Likes: +194 Location: Flagstaff, AZ
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Username Protected wrote: No you didn't. Sure did. Saved 5 man days for my employees. Quote: But let's be truthful about how much time and money it saves. You should heed you own words and stop assuming what you know about others. The fact you can't make it work says something about you, but the rest of the world may be different. Mike C.
Mike
I agree the value in time is very significant. Imagine the other projects your folks can be working on if they are back at the shop having completed the task for which you flew them to achieve. And now they can focus on other business. And you can think forward about new opportunities you would not have otherwise, because you and your team were stuck in time trying to solve or achieve something.
I hear what Adam is saying that owing and operating a corporate aircraft is expensive. but it all comes down to economics. The profit involved in the product or service a company provides is different for each job. Yes maybe 1 flight will not be a break even event but most corporations do not have airplanes because they loose money. Public corporation shareholders would not allow it and private business would go under. If you can fly to save time that means you are doing something more profitable than unproductive downtime.
Every business is run differently (even a franchise) but at the end of the day the best businesses have a leader who understands the cost benefit relationship of their enterprise, more than anyone else.
I fly to generate new business and maintain relationships which more than offsets any perceived loss leader cost because we as a company generate new business from our trips. Sure sometimes I have a trip that is a bust, but that is less than 10% overall.
In terms of business, there are only 3 things I think about when I go to sleep. Sales Sales Sales.
Eric
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 25 Jul 2021, 00:33 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: In terms of business, there are only 3 things I think about when I go to sleep. Sales Sales Sales. Virtually every client I have was achieved after visiting them using the airplane. Nothing is as effective as an on site visit to close the deal. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet? Posted: 25 Jul 2021, 01:14 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2539 Post Likes: +1264
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Username Protected wrote: In terms of business, there are only 3 things I think about when I go to sleep. Sales Sales Sales. Virtually every client I have was achieved after visiting them using the airplane. Nothing is as effective as an on site visit to close the deal. Mike C. I can second that. Used to work in sales. I could maybe close 5% of good leads over the phone. In person it was 50%.
_________________ Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.
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