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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2021, 10:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
This thread has reached absurdity in regard to explaining how business aircraft work. Some people just have to prove what they don’t know.

Now, back to the SF50…

Lets try again...
Comparing the SF50 with the Eclipse 500

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA0nDVcFD14

I'm not sure about the exact status right now of the Eclipse in terms of support, but I do find it interesting that the eclipse would be much cheaper and have the second engine as a "safety feature" vs a chute. Obviously from the eclipse its a short hop to the C501SP (less captital, higher fuel burn) or the P180 Avanti (FAA: no type rating required and similar operating costs vs the eclipse as per the YouTube video).


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2021, 11:00 
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I'm in line to take delivery of an SF50 in 27 more days (31/8) and currently fly an KA F90. So....... you want to hear my take?

Different missions. 7 people and baggage going cross country? F90. Wife and I going for a weekend? SF50. It is a fun, fun airplane to fly. It's new (wife likes that)...it has all the latest gizmo's and gadgets and, most importantly, I can get insurance on the thing. I never looked at the Eclipse because I live in Brazil and support is non-existent for such a thing. The Eclipse, TBN, and Pilatus were all looked at but there is minimal support for all of them, a gently used TBN or Pilatus costs the same as a new Vision, the Mustang is nice but was going to be a devil to insure here and isn't available new, and when you buy an SF50 you can get finance for a decent length of time via Exim bank. No other plane I could have bought offered that as it's built in the US. A new King Air? Yes, at double the price.

If you are looking at the limitations (FL310, 310 kts, capacity with full fuel) yes, it comes up short on many things vs. other light jets and many turboprops...but for a private pilot like me that has no jet time, limited turbine time, wants to fly it, and you factor in credit and insurance availability than it's just one more "gateway drug" ...

So that was my reasoning...oh, and the fact you can sell it a year or two later with 300 or 400 hours for essentially what you have in it was nice too. Of course they will probably pop a G3 on me and make the G2+ sell at a discount then but there isn't much choice for me. CAPS or no CAPS, single or twin turbine, there is simply no other option that allows me to purchase a zero time airframe that has parts availability and support in Brazil, can get Exim finance out of the US at a decent rate and term, and allow me to get it insured it and fly it. And when you are used to pistons or a 40 year old King Air it's still a kick in the seat of the pants to fly the "near-jet" Vision. It's a good plane if you can live with and accept the limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 13:07 
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This may have been mentioned before, but I was recently talking to a flying friend about my move to the 501 and it made me think of this thread.

He currently flies an SR20. It is just he and his wife flying around the SE US. However, he has been thinking about something to expand their weekend flying and in general just daydreaming about his next plane like many of us do.

His wife has said in absolute terms that the only jet she would fly in is a Vision Jet, and all because of the chute. For this person, it boiled down to what they would do if the pilot became incapacitated. The chute mitigates that fear for them.

So, just a data point - these decisions are often made with input from a partner who has their own hopes and fears to be factored in.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 13:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
This may have been mentioned before, but I was recently talking to a flying friend about my move to the 501 and it made me think of this thread.

He currently flies an SR20. It is just he and his wife flying around the SE US. However, he has been thinking about something to expand their weekend flying and in general just daydreaming about his next plane like many of us do.

His wife has said in absolute terms that the only jet she would fly in is a Vision Jet, and all because of the chute. For this person, it boiled down to what they would do if the pilot became incapacitated. The chute mitigates that fear for them.

So, just a data point - these decisions are often made with input from a partner who has their own hopes and fears to be factored in.


I wonder how she would feel about Garmin's new autoland systems. That expands the choices to the M600 and TBM as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 13:26 
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Username Protected wrote:
This may have been mentioned before, but I was recently talking to a flying friend about my move to the 501 and it made me think of this thread.

He currently flies an SR20. It is just he and his wife flying around the SE US. However, he has been thinking about something to expand their weekend flying and in general just daydreaming about his next plane like many of us do.

His wife has said in absolute terms that the only jet she would fly in is a Vision Jet, and all because of the chute. For this person, it boiled down to what they would do if the pilot became incapacitated. The chute mitigates that fear for them.

So, just a data point - these decisions are often made with input from a partner who has their own hopes and fears to be factored in.


I wonder how she would feel about Garmin's new autoland systems. That expands the choices to the M600 and TBM as well.

Autoland is better for pilot incapacitation, the chute is for engine or airframe failure (envelope limitations considered). Only the VJ has both.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 15:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
Autoland is better for pilot incapacitation, the chute is for engine or airframe failure (envelope limitations considered).

The SF50 chute is worthless for an airframe failure.

When that happens, the system won't deploy the chute until the autopilot enters the chute envelope by leveling the wings and slowing down *OR* a 30 second timer expires.

If the airframe is damaged that you (or the autopilot, which has less authority) can't fly it, then it isn't going to be in the chute envelope, and after 30 seconds, you either have already hit the ground, or your speed is so high that the chute will rip off when deployed.

I am aware of no way to bypass the 30 second timer.

If the plane is not so badly damaged that you can enter the envelope, then you can fly the plane.

The chute on the SF50 is mostly useless. Doesn't work at high speeds when you have high altitude, and doesn't work at low altitude when you have slow speeds. It sounds nice on paper, but it is a marketing gimmick to comfort the ignorant.

There has never been a passenger initiated chute pull due to pilot incapacitation on any Cirrus, SR or SF, in their entire history. This is more than 10 million hours of flight. In other words, the emotion and the reality differ on this aspect.

Mike C.

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Last edited on 09 Aug 2021, 18:17, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 17:27 
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Rich Pickett (mentioned earlier ITT) has a new article about the G2+ in Twin and Turbine (August)
https://www.twinandturbine.com/cirrus-v ... vements-2/

One tidbit I hadn't noticed previously—the outboard rear seats are limited to 90lbs each.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 17:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
There has never been a passenger initiated chute pull due to pilot incapacitation on any Cirrus, SR or SF, in their entire history. This is more than 10 million hours of flight. In other words, the motion and the reality differ on this aspect.


Here is a passenger initiated chute pull. Hard to tell the degree of pilot incapacitation but the pilot did ask the right seat passenger to pull the chute after the airplane stalled and entered a counterclockwise spin.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... L&IType=FA


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 18:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
There has never been a passenger initiated chute pull due to pilot incapacitation on any Cirrus, SR or SF, in their entire history. This is more than 10 million hours of flight. In other words, the motion and the reality differ on this aspect.

I agree with your post. But you are looking at this as both an engineer and an accomplished pilot.

My point was that the chute brings peace of mind to non-pilot partners. For the couple I spoke to, the non-pilot knows how to slow the airplane down and initiate the chute pull. That gives them a feeling of power vs not having the chute and they would feel powerless in case the pilot were to become incapacitated.

Most people need the agreement of a partner before buying such a high-ticket item and in the case that the partner is not a pilot, the chute (and/or an autoland system) is a positive.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 18:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
My point was that the chute brings peace of mind to non-pilot partners. For the couple I spoke to, the non-pilot knows how to slow the airplane down and initiate the chute pull. That gives them a feeling of power vs not having the chute and they would feel powerless in case the pilot were to become incapacitated.

Pinch hitter course could do the same, *and* actually be effective.

I wonder how a passenger will feel when they pull the handle on an SF-50 and then no chute. In a desperate situation, which is what it will be if the plane can't get into the benign chute envelope, 30 seconds is an eternity waiting for something to happen.

Quote:
Most people need the agreement of a partner before buying such a high-ticket item and in the case that the partner is not a pilot, the chute (and/or an autoland system) is a positive.

The chute has always been about emotional comfort. Unfortunately, that is its greatest danger since it gives the pilot that comfort, too, and they press into situations they would not enter without the chute.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 18:24 
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Cirrus is selling the SR series and the SF50 jets as fast as they can build them…..no matter what reason(s) cause someone to buy one. Clearly they are doing many things right from an airplane business perspective. These people definitely are not listening to folks who are reciting reasons to NOT buy a Cirrus.

Isn’t it great that GA has a company like this that is pumping out great airplanes into the market for private owners?!! It’s great to see..

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 18:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
Cirrus is selling the SR series and the SF50 jets as fast as they can build them

To be precise, they set a production rate to meet the demand. They could build them faster if they wanted to.

Even more precisely, present day rates of closing sales is NOT as fast as they are making them now. The backlog is shrinking.

Eclipse is also selling their jet as fast as they are building it, too. Zero equals zero!

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 19:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
Cirrus is selling the SR series and the SF50 jets as fast as they can build them

To be precise, they set a production rate to meet the demand. They could build them faster if they wanted to.

Even more precisely, present day rates of closing sales is NOT as fast as they are making them now. The backlog is shrinking.

Eclipse is also selling their jet as fast as they are building it, too. Zero equals zero!

Mike C.


It’s not clear whether the backlog on the SR is shrinking or growing. Probably pretty steady at this point.

Obviously the backlog on the SF is going to shrink. Not a whole lot of people out there who want a jet four years from now. From what I see the market in near term positions is still robust and you could still make a pretty good return just buying positions and then selling them once they get close to production.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 19:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
My point was that the chute brings peace of mind to non-pilot partners. For the couple I spoke to, the non-pilot knows how to slow the airplane down and initiate the chute pull. That gives them a feeling of power vs not having the chute and they would feel powerless in case the pilot were to become incapacitated.

Pinch hitter course could do the same, *and* actually be effective.

I wonder how a passenger will feel when they pull the handle on an SF-50 and then no chute. In a desperate situation, which is what it will be if the plane can't get into the benign chute envelope, 30 seconds is an eternity waiting for something to happen.

Yes, but a pinch hitter course would come after the sale and would require an investment by the partner. I am talking about it as a selling tool.

But you answered the question. It is emotional and most people buy things (especially transportation things) at least partially with their emotions.

Most of our partners tolerate our hobby because they love us. They don't always want to join in the fun.

If a partner is going to fly in an SF50 regularly, they would likely invest the time to learn how to use the chute. My wife was briefed and comfortable with how to pull power (let the AP hold altitude so speed w/ bleed off), watch the airspeed tape on the PDF until it read below 140, then pull.

She is currently loving having 2 pilots in the Citation, though she does feel the frustration w/ scheduling the second one.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2021, 20:41 
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Username Protected wrote:

Even more precisely, present day rates of closing sales is NOT as fast as they are making them now. The backlog is shrinking.

Eclipse is also selling their jet as fast as they are building it, too. Zero equals zero!

Mike C.


Mike there are times when I'm not sure whether you are for or against GA manufacturing. :D

I wish you were a GA manufacturer, I think we'd see a huge uptick in sales........and I mean that genuinely.

I'm sticking with my Pilatus until you build a better airplane than that ;)

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