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28 Mar 2024, 16:35 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2021, 13:28 
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Why do you think airframe failure slows a plane down?

If the wings fall off, the plane goes very fast!

A mid air or structural failure in an SF might be excruciating waiting those 30 seconds before the chute finally comes out.


In case of a mid-air or airframe failure, the aircraft would likely be spinning/tumbling uncontrollably, rather than enter a smooth dive. That's going to slow the plane down dramatically. The terminal velocity of a skydiver is only about 130 kts, I expect a tumbling plane to be slower than that.

With airframe failure, the main concern would be whether the pilot can reach the handle while fighting the centrifugal forces. That's why ejection seats have these big loops over the pilot's head.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2021, 18:15 
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Like any other plane, it has flexible loading within a 2400+ pound useful load. Being a single engine, the fuel burn is less. Max fuel is 2000 lbs, giving a 1275 NM range. So, you can put 1000 pounds in the cabin and fly 900 NM in 3 hours. Short trips of 2.25 hours can have up to 1350 pounds in the cabin. There are five seats for adults, and two child seats in the back row.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of the performance data.

900nm in 3 hours is a block speed of 300kts. I didn't think it was that fast. Cirrus lists max cruise at FL310 as 305kts. Thus, I thought it had a block speed more like 270-280kts for max cruise, and 50-60kts less for long-range cruise. Is that incorrect?
Also, if you put 1000 pounds in the cabin, that leaves around 1400 for fuel. I think the first hour burns about 80gal (540#), which leaves around 860#. I think the second and third hour burns are around 420pph. It looks like you'd be approaching fuel exhaustion at 3 hours. If you slowed to long-range cruise at 315pph, you'd have around 300# left, but you'd be nowhere near 900nm. Probably more like 700nm. I would think reserves would be around 300# VFR and 400# IFR.

With 1350 payload, that leaves 1050 for fuel. It looks like you could make a 1.5 hour flight with VFR reserve, but not 2.25.

I'm not sure if my data is accurate, but I'm not getting it to add up with what I understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2021, 22:38 
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Location: In between the opioid and marijuana epidemics
Aircraft: 182, A36TC
Username Protected wrote:
Like any other plane, it has flexible loading within a 2400+ pound useful load. Being a single engine, the fuel burn is less. Max fuel is 2000 lbs, giving a 1275 NM range. So, you can put 1000 pounds in the cabin and fly 900 NM in 3 hours. Short trips of 2.25 hours can have up to 1350 pounds in the cabin. There are five seats for adults, and two child seats in the back row.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of the performance data.

900nm in 3 hours is a block speed of 300kts. I didn't think it was that fast. Cirrus lists max cruise at FL310 as 305kts. Thus, I thought it had a block speed more like 270-280kts for max cruise, and 50-60kts less for long-range cruise. Is that incorrect?
Also, if you put 1000 pounds in the cabin, that leaves around 1400 for fuel. I think the first hour burns about 80gal (540#), which leaves around 860#. I think the second and third hour burns are around 420pph. It looks like you'd be approaching fuel exhaustion at 3 hours. If you slowed to long-range cruise at 315pph, you'd have around 300# left, but you'd be nowhere near 900nm. Probably more like 700nm. I would think reserves would be around 300# VFR and 400# IFR.

With 1350 payload, that leaves 1050 for fuel. It looks like you could make a 1.5 hour flight with VFR reserve, but not 2.25.

I'm not sure if my data is accurate, but I'm not getting it to add up with what I understand.


I think you are very close. Mike C can give us down to the knot and NM.

My question is why is the fuel burn more than an eclipse. Is it simply a matter of altitude. Could they have tuned engine for lower altitude?

Cool airplane and they definitely found a niche. The most brilliant part is recognizing most people make decisions with their emotions.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2021, 23:15 
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So I downloaded the profile. (Should have done in the first place instead of trolling BT brain trust w a Vision Jet reference) Denver to San Francisco is 820nm. 3:14 one way, 2:51 the other. About 18 knots of wind. With this wind it appears you could do this with 550lbs or so in the cabin.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 01:40 
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Ok. I went ahead and built a FF profile. For 900nm, zero wind, you reach MGTOW at a 650# payload allowing for a 350# fuel reserve. Flight time is 3.2 hours. To get the published max range you have to slow to max range, which will take 5.5 hours. I’d go for a fuel stop instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 01:52 
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For 900nm, zero wind, you reach MGTOW at a 650# payload allowing for a 350# fuel reserve. Flight time is 3.2 hours. To get the published max range you have to slow to max range, which will take 5.5 hours. I’d go for a fuel stop instead.

You misspelled "Baron."

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 09:43 
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No, misspelled Mustang!

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 10:35 
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Yes a Baron or a TAT could do the same mission in the same time, give or take. Certainly would not have the cabin comfort or the same ability to go around weather. Then again, any deviation and you probably need to stop for fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 10:43 
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For some reason we all worry about those maximum-weight-maximum-distance flights, even though the large majority of our flights never need those maximums. Most flights, even for the Citations and MU2’s and Bonanzas have 1 or 2 or 3 people and go maybe 200-400 miles.

But, I guess it’s fun to argue about these things… :D

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 11:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
For some reason we all worry about those maximum-weight-maximum-distance flights, even though the large majority of our flights never need those maximums. Most flights, even for the Citations and MU2’s and Bonanzas have 1 or 2 or 3 people and go maybe 200-400 miles.

But, I guess it’s fun to argue about these things… :D


This x 1000

I’ve got a piston/single plane for sale right now and I’m a bit shocked at the amount of people who want to know about 1000nm flights with four adults, that isn’t a realistic mission for any four seat airplane, my advice if you want to carry four adults is to buy a plane with 6-8 seats, not four

Most of the vision jets are probably doing 1-2hr hops, and the owners are so happy they are out flying and not posting on message boards


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 11:35 
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For some reason we all worry about those maximum-weight-maximum-distance flights, even though the large majority of our flights never need those maximums. Most flights, even for the Citations and MU2’s and Bonanzas have 1 or 2 or 3 people and go maybe 200-400 miles.

But, I guess it’s fun to argue about these things… :D

Sure, most flights are 200 nm.

But applying that range to a plane-buying decision only works if you want to buy a plane that works for *most people.* I don't want to buy a plane that works for most people - I want a plane that works for me. Some of us fly max distance flights much more often than others.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 13:17 
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Joined: 07/19/10
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Username Protected wrote:
Sure, most flights are 200 nm.

But applying that range to a plane-buying decision only works if you want to buy a plane that works for *most people.* I don't want to buy a plane that works for most people - I want a plane that works for me. Some of us fly max distance flights much more often than others.

I look at it differently. My bonanza with tip tanks can easily fly up well over 1000nm and I’ve done it. But 48 out of 50 flights I’m hopping between IA and WI - <200nm.

So if I could afford VJ it would save me the time, provide much greater comfort, improved dispatch rate and increase safety on those 48 flights, while on the remaining 2 (due to needed fuel stop) it would only provide much greater comfort, improved dispatch rate and increase safety.

I’ll take that any day and twice on Sunday.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 13:23 
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Username Protected wrote:
For some reason we all worry about those maximum-weight-maximum-distance flights, even though the large majority of our flights never need those maximums. Most flights, even for the Citations and MU2’s and Bonanzas have 1 or 2 or 3 people and go maybe 200-400 miles.

But, I guess it’s fun to argue about these things… :D


At 1-3 people and 400nm an SR22 makes more sense than any turbine.

If that’s really the mission then why do turbine planes exist.

They exist because we buy planes for the limit of the mission not the median.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 13:42 
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I live in Jackson, Mississippi. The place to have a beach house is Destin, Florida.

It's a six hour drive if you're traffic-lucky, but would be under an hour (233nm) in the Vision. Easy trip with your wife, kid, kid's wife and passel of grandkids. Everybody loves the plane, your buddies are jealous ... Not hard to see the appeal.

This is THE plane for somebody who can afford a $5 million jet but isn't set up to feed it or fly it.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 14:51 
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At 1-3 people and 400nm an SR22 makes more sense than any turbine.

They exist because we buy planes for the limit of the mission not the median.


come fly 3 in my turbine for 400nm and you will understand why people choose it over the cirrus, has nothing to do with the range


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