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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2021, 23:17 
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I live near Denver. I know a lot of people w turbine aircraft. Unless they are paying 200k each for the crew, it seems tough to find pilots w true all the time availability AND someone you trust flying you around.

Most of the people I know w pilots have had to cancel trips in the last year due to pilot availability. To me, that defeats a big benefit of the plane.

My all in cost to run a very capable airplane is not dissimilar from the cost of a good pilot. That makes it pretty easy to justify business having the plane. I do fly solo a lot of the time and a significant number of trips have schedule changes even during them. Not having to manage a pilot makes that easier. Having a plane that keeps pretty much all trips within 3-4 hour max window time wise has really made things more convenient. I never lose more than half a day traveling for any trip. That’s a massive productivity benefit.


This is contrary to the ads I see running on various job boards. Going rate for full-time Part 91 turboprop pilots seems to run around $70-80K. If people had trouble funding good pilots at that rate, the pay would be higher.

BTW, I am a little skeptical of many claims of productivity benefits. Obviously, if your business is performing emergency repairs on oil rigs in the middle of nowhere, you need a plane to do that effectively. But a typical claim goes like this: "I can have 3 business meetings in 3 different cities in one day and be home for dinner". OK, great. But unless you need to have 3 business meetings a day *every day*, nothing stops you from scheduling those meetings over 3 different days and put in the same amount of work hours from hotel rooms, airline lounges and first class seats (something you can't do while flying the plane). What is being described here is a lifestyle benefit, not a productivity benefit.


I disagree, even though it was only once a week, I was able to see three crews and/or clients in one day, enabling me to free up two days to be productive. Wasting a whole day in an airport or vehicle just to get to a place is also unproductive. Plus I got to be at my home, in my own bed eating my own food just about every day. And my wife still thought I was a workaholic.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2021, 23:29 
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People have very different priorities and what sounds unattractive to you may be very attractive to someone else.

It is curious you allow for this variation from person to person, but have rejected that anyone could be using an airplane economically.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2021, 23:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
I live near Denver. I know a lot of people w turbine aircraft. Unless they are paying 200k each for the crew, it seems tough to find pilots w true all the time availability AND someone you trust flying you around.

Most of the people I know w pilots have had to cancel trips in the last year due to pilot availability. To me, that defeats a big benefit of the plane.

My all in cost to run a very capable airplane is not dissimilar from the cost of a good pilot. That makes it pretty easy to justify business having the plane. I do fly solo a lot of the time and a significant number of trips have schedule changes even during them. Not having to manage a pilot makes that easier. Having a plane that keeps pretty much all trips within 3-4 hour max window time wise has really made things more convenient. I never lose more than half a day traveling for any trip. That’s a massive productivity benefit.


This is contrary to the ads I see running on various job boards. Going rate for full-time Part 91 turboprop pilots seems to run around $70-80K. If people had trouble funding good pilots at that rate, the pay would be higher.

BTW, I am a little skeptical of many claims of productivity benefits. Obviously, if your business is performing emergency repairs on oil rigs in the middle of nowhere, you need a plane to do that effectively. But a typical claim goes like this: "I can have 3 business meetings in 3 different cities in one day and be home for dinner".

OK, great. But unless you need to have 3 business meetings a day *every day*, nothing stops you from scheduling those meetings over 3 different days and putting in the same amount of work hours from hotel rooms, airline lounges and first class seats (something you can't do while flying the plane). What is being described here is a lifestyle benefit, not a productivity benefit.


Yuri

respectively, the productivity benefit is meeting the customer "in person" for hugely significant client relationship and deal closing reasons.

time is the key here. you would be amazed how much money you can make developing personal relationships with customers in person and then doing it again same day (not really possible going commercial) with personal aircraft especially if you are interested in growing a company. occasionally I work as a welding consultant and this one particular owner (my customer) has flown me on his company jet because he realizes the value of my time but more importantly his time ad hoc me representing his OR HER goals.

personal business aircraft use may not work for everyone but I know a lot of business owners who do things with their aircraft to save time. these mega successful individuals see things in a different way than mere mortals like you and I. they don't waste time because it is the most precious thing in the world.

Eric

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2021, 22:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
No, sorry, that’s not a valid statement. Time is money, anything that increases your time to react, time to respond, or time to commit to a client, will cost you

All of the alternatives you mention are not based in reality, you forget about competitors, if I’m not with the client, my competition may be

Sorry, let me plan this trip when Delta can get me there, may give the deal to a competitor

Now, put a price on that


Fair enough. If you are in a quick reaction business where you need to be at client site faster than the competition, an airplane is a great competitive advantage. But I'd say this is not typical. In my industry, the deals take months to close, and getting to the client today vs. 2 days from now makes no difference. In fact, if I offer my client to come meet in person, they will probably schedule that meeting a couple of weeks in the future, after they had time to read my proposal, discuss it internally, and find a time slot that works for 10 people who need to be in the meeting.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2021, 22:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
It is curious you allow for this variation from person to person, but have rejected that anyone could be using an airplane economically.

I totally did NOT reject that anyone could be using an airplane economically. My only argument was that what allows you (and me) to operate our airplanes economically is our personal interest in the aviation. We fly because we like to fly and we enjoy the lifestyle it provides, and we are fortunate enough to be able to use that skill in business as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2021, 22:47 
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Going rate for full-time Part 91 turboprop pilots seems to run around $70-80K.

I think we have different definitions of "full-time."

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2021, 22:59 
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Username Protected wrote:


This is contrary to the ads I see running on various job boards. Going rate for full-time Part 91 turboprop pilots seems to run around $70-80K. If people had trouble funding good pilots at that rate, the pay would be higher.


I can’t imagine putting my employees, much less my family in the plane with someone who would do that job for that comp. As a right seater for me and someone to get the plane ready to go and put it away after we land maybe, but as someone who can be given the instruction “Go to A pick up X and take him to B and then come back here,” no way. That money doesn’t buy the experience I’d want.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 31 Jul 2021, 11:35 
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Username Protected wrote:

Fair enough. If you are in a quick reaction business where you need to be at client site faster than the competition, an airplane is a great competitive advantage. But I'd say this is not typical. In my industry, the deals take months to close, and getting to the client today vs. 2 days from now makes no difference. In fact, if I offer my client to come meet in person, they will probably schedule that meeting a couple of weeks in the future, after they had time to read my proposal, discuss it internally, and find a time slot that works for 10 people who need to be in the meeting.


Now do that with 6 or 7 clients, and coordinate logistics and 6-7 diff varying schedules

For me, your example is too vanilla, very few business owners service one client on predictable timelines


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 31 Jul 2021, 13:14 
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OK, great. But unless you need to have 3 business meetings a day *every day*, nothing stops you from scheduling those meetings over 3 different days and putting in the same amount of work hours from hotel rooms, airline lounges and first class seats (something you can't do while flying the plane). What is being described here is a lifestyle benefit, not a productivity benefit.


Surely you’re joking? Three days to do three meetings sleeping in hotels, hanging out in airports, Dealing with the disaster of reschedules and canceled flights, late meetings because some connection got screwed up, hanging out in lounges versus the same three meetings in one day is not a productivity benefit? I can’t count the number of times I’ve done two or more big ticket items on the same day that could not have been done on the airlines. With money you can replace almost anything, and accomplish almost anything, but you can’t create more time no matter how much money you have. Sure the lifestyle is not to be under appreciated. Time spent with your kids or grandkids instead of sitting in an airport, intimate time with your significant other instead of sleeping in a hotel far away, how do you put a price on that. However, if you do want to beat the reliability of the airlines, pretty much going to have to have a turbine, or at least a deiced aircraft that can fly in the 20s. Gets more difficult if you’re trying to do those missions in the meat of the weather.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 31 Jul 2021, 13:28 
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However, if you do want to beat the reliability of the airlines, pretty much going to have to have a turbine, or at least a deiced aircraft that can fly in the 20s. Gets more difficult if you’re trying to do those missions in the meat of the weather.


Even with my lowly little Baron I do better on time performance (for my schedule) than Southwest. It just comes down to flexibility of departure time.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 31 Jul 2021, 14:44 
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Flexibility goes along way. The airlines are sometimes handicapped, because they have on time pressure. Whereas when you are your own pilot, you can move your schedule forward or backwards just a little bit sometimes and avoid some real disasters. You can also reroute or even change destinations.

I remember one of my business colleagues was up in New Jersey, and Denver was getting pounded with a storm of a lifetime. I offered to fly her back and she politely declined. While Denver was getting pounded, I just flew a little further south, picked up fuel in Pueblo and could see the big clouds just north of me. Easy flight back to Ogden. For her, turns out with all the cancellations, she got stuck in New Jersey for three days, couldn’t even get a rental car because with all the cancellations everything was booked.

Coming out of Orlando one time, my wife wanted to come back commercial to Salt Lake, with the baby, she thought she’d rather spend four hours on a nonstop flight with the baby Than ride with me and the other kids, same total travel time but one stop and More time in the plane. I got out right before the thunderstorms started pummeling Orlando, We got into our airport North of Salt Lake before the thunderstorms started pummeling Salt Lake City. Sonshe had delays and ground holds from both ends. We got back to Salt Lake in time for dinner and a movie. She and the baby didn’t even make it home that day, Got in sometime early morning the next day. I didn’t say a word. Smarter than that.

I’ve missed a few meetings, but always on commercial flights when my plane has not been available. I can’t think of any I’ve missed flying myself. Sometimes have to get a little creative on departure and arrival locations and times, but I’ve always been able to figure something out.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 31 Jul 2021, 17:22 
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Just for comparison purposes, one can make just about what was called, "pro pilot" working at a car wash here in Silicon Valley.

They're paying $25/hr down the street and there's overtime and a signing bonus. That's about $60k-$70k a year.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 31 Jul 2021, 17:39 
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This thread has reached absurdity in regard to explaining how business aircraft work. Some people just have to prove what they don’t know.

Now, back to the SF50…

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2021, 13:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Going rate for full-time Part 91 turboprop pilots seems to run around $70-80K.

I think we have different definitions of "full-time."


Maybe. In this case, it would be full-time pay for part-time work. Sounds awfully attractive to to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2021, 13:17 
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I can’t imagine putting my employees, much less my family in the plane with someone who would do that job for that comp. As a right seater for me and someone to get the plane ready to go and put it away after we land maybe, but as someone who can be given the instruction “Go to A pick up X and take him to B and then come back here,” no way. That money doesn’t buy the experience I’d want.


Well, in this thread, folks are saying $70-80K is the right amount.

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=196211

Not to mention, this is pretty similar to what a captain at Cape Air or various 135 outfits or even regionals make, with way more intense work schedule. I guess your standards are higher than what paying passengers can expect. ;)


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