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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2021, 23:03 
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There aren't a lot of these guys around, and they tend not to last. They're certainly not $75k/year.

Correct.

Those that do exist, tend to be in major metro areas with a lot of big iron GA (think KTEB, KVNY).

For the normal folk in the middle of the country, the 24/7 types are very rare.

I don't own an airplane to charter a human. I will soon be single pilot enabled.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2021, 23:11 
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What I am saying is that we own and fly these planes for all these intangible benefits the flying has to offer, not to so save money.

You don't speak for all.

The airplane is the most economical way for me to increase the geographical footprint of my business.

With the airplane, I can reach anywhere in the country faster than the airlines.

Without the airplane, I either have to reduce my footprint, which costs me revenue, or I have to move my business near a major airline hub like Chicago or Atlanta, which will cost me a huge increase in operating expenses.

The fact the airplane enables my location and still be effective getting places to generate revenue is a major economic advantage.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2021, 23:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
It never made financial sense for me because I refrained from taking employees on the plane for liability reasons.

Employees are the lowest liability passengers ever, at least in my state. Mike C.

In terms of immediate $ that may be possible/debatable...but no way long term. An accident in a company plane is a death sentence to your aviation program.

At the same time, companies own airplanes to transport employees, it's one of our competitive advantages.

We must do it safely.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2021, 23:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
This is just incorrect.... It depends on the mission and where your business takes you. Try flying to Pecos, Texas - the heart of the Delaware Basin on a regular basis. And forget New York - try to do it from Houston or Dallas.... and make it work.

For some folks like yourself, flying doesn't make sense. I get it. For other folks like myself and others on this thread, airlines are a productivity killer.


Did you miss the part where I said it depends on where you live (and, of course, where you are going)? Obvisouly if you need to travel to Pecos TX (which, I believe is somewhere near Timbuktu), private aviation is the way to go. But that's a small fraction of business travel. Great majority of business travel is between major population centers, and for that the airlines work just fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2021, 23:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
Yuri, let's agree that you don't know what you don't know.

I am an IT professional who is on 30 minute notice 24/7 for my client. I loose no sleep over it, do not plan vacations around it, nothing. And my clients are very happy.

I am also a professional in another field where I'm on 6h notice but if the call comes I've got to be in a very specific place. The amount of planning to have a life around it is just mind boggling.

BTW - even if you don't mind - ask your wife.


I'd much rather take an occasional 6 hr callout vs. being stuck in the office 9 to 5 every day.

As for my wife - I've done the traveling consultant gig for 20 years. I am sure she'd prefer me being unpredictably away 1-2 days a week vs. me being predictably away 4-5 days a week, every week.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2021, 23:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
It never made financial sense for me because I refrained from taking employees on the plane for liability reasons.

Employees are the lowest liability passengers ever, at least in my state.

They are covered by worker's comp if there is an accident while on business. That prescribes certain payouts to them, and limits the liability to the business otherwise.

When I carry clients or non family passengers, I have far more liability exposure since there is no prescribed compensation and liability.

We make sure our worker's comp insurance covers travel in company owned/leased aircraft. Not all do, so that is something to check.

Mike C.

Mike, does worker's comp limit claims of survivors, like loss of consortium?
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2021, 23:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
You don't speak for all.

The airplane is the most economical way for me to increase the geographical footprint of my business.

With the airplane, I can reach anywhere in the country faster than the airlines.

Without the airplane, I either have to reduce my footprint, which costs me revenue, or I have to move my business near a major airline hub like Chicago or Atlanta, which will cost me a huge increase in operating expenses.

The fact the airplane enables my location and still be effective getting places to generate revenue is a major economic advantage.

Mike C.


I never said an airplane can't be a smart investment for a business. There are plenty of situations where private flying is the way to go. This conversation is specifically about the business owner investing their own time into becoming a company pilot when they have no other reason/interest in flying.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2021, 10:59 
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Keeping a current mu2 pilot available 24/7/365 in Evansville IN would probably cost $150-$200k for long term stability. The job is not attractive in location, experience building, job security, working conditions or lifestyle. Your only lever is pay and that pay would need to be enough to never seek another opportunity.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2021, 11:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
Mike, does worker's comp limit claims of survivors, like loss of consortium?

IANAL, but I believe so.

The primary objective of worker's comp is to provide specific compensation to the families of workers injured or killed in workplace accidents and give companies a quantifiable liability limit from those events. I believe the law covers all liabilities from the events. It helps both workers and companies.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2021, 11:44 
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Why are you jet owners still engaging with someone who clearly has no personal experience with business jet ownership/use and has a very narrow view of the business aviation world?

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2021, 11:53 
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I live near Denver. I know a lot of people w turbine aircraft. Unless they are paying 200k each for the crew, it seems tough to find pilots w true all the time availability AND someone you trust flying you around.

Most of the people I know w pilots have had to cancel trips in the last year due to pilot availability. To me, that defeats a big benefit of the plane.

My all in cost to run a very capable airplane is not dissimilar from the cost of a good pilot. That makes it pretty easy to justify business having the plane. I do fly solo a lot of the time and a significant number of trips have schedule changes even during them. Not having to manage a pilot makes that easier. Having a plane that keeps pretty much all trips within 3-4 hour max window time wise has really made things more convenient. I never lose more than half a day traveling for any trip. That’s a massive productivity benefit.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2021, 12:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
Why are you jet owners still engaging with someone who clearly has no personal experience with business jet ownership/use and has a very narrow view of the business aviation world?

To educate the readers with still open minds.

The objective was never to change his given its apparent permanence.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2021, 22:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
Keeping a current mu2 pilot available 24/7/365 in Evansville IN would probably cost $150-$200k for long term stability. The job is not attractive in location, experience building, job security, working conditions or lifestyle. Your only lever is pay and that pay would need to be enough to never seek another opportunity.


I am not sure about that. People have very different priorities and what sounds unattractive to you may be very attractive to someone else. Could be a great gig for someone who likes free time to pursue their personal interests and does not mind staying fairly local most of the time.

Engineers can pretty much get a job anywhere these days, and if Mike found some qualified engineers to work for his company, there must be enough attractions in Evansville IN for people to want to live there. Not to mention, a pilot could live in Nashville or Louisville or St. Louis and easily hold this job.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2021, 23:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
I live near Denver. I know a lot of people w turbine aircraft. Unless they are paying 200k each for the crew, it seems tough to find pilots w true all the time availability AND someone you trust flying you around.

Most of the people I know w pilots have had to cancel trips in the last year due to pilot availability. To me, that defeats a big benefit of the plane.

My all in cost to run a very capable airplane is not dissimilar from the cost of a good pilot. That makes it pretty easy to justify business having the plane. I do fly solo a lot of the time and a significant number of trips have schedule changes even during them. Not having to manage a pilot makes that easier. Having a plane that keeps pretty much all trips within 3-4 hour max window time wise has really made things more convenient. I never lose more than half a day traveling for any trip. That’s a massive productivity benefit.


This is contrary to the ads I see running on various job boards. Going rate for full-time Part 91 turboprop pilots seems to run around $70-80K. If people had trouble funding good pilots at that rate, the pay would be higher.

BTW, I am a little skeptical of many claims of productivity benefits. Obviously, if your business is performing emergency repairs on oil rigs in the middle of nowhere, you need a plane to do that effectively. But a typical claim goes like this: "I can have 3 business meetings in 3 different cities in one day and be home for dinner".

OK, great. But unless you need to have 3 business meetings a day *every day*, nothing stops you from scheduling those meetings over 3 different days and putting in the same amount of work hours from hotel rooms, airline lounges and first class seats (something you can't do while flying the plane). What is being described here is a lifestyle benefit, not a productivity benefit.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone here flying a Vision jet?
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2021, 23:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
But typical claim goes like this: "I can have 3 business meetings in 3 different cities in one day and be home for dinner". OK, great. But unless you need to have 3 business meetings a day *every day*, nothing stops you from scheduling those meetings over 3 different days and put in the same amount of work hours from hotel rooms, airline lounges and first class seats (something you can't do while flying the plane). What is being described here is a lifestyle benefit, not a productivity benefit.



No, sorry, that’s not a valid statement. Time is money, anything that increases your time to react, time to respond, or time to commit to a client, will cost you

All of the alternatives you mention are not based in reality, you forget about competitors, if I’m not with the client, my competition may be

Sorry, let me plan this trip when Delta can get me there, may give the deal to a competitor

Now, put a price on that


Last edited on 29 Jul 2021, 23:18, edited 1 time in total.

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