banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 18:14 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 03:05 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 06/06/16
Posts: 59
Post Likes: +57
Aircraft: Seneca II
Title purely for effect, but seriously looking for advice from folks who have been in a similar situation.

I've owned an 81 Piper Seneca II since 2016. It was a bit of a project when I purchased it, but finally have the plane and engines running great and reliable. My mission is typically solo flying two 300 NM trips monthly, and 1 600 NM trip bi-monthly. I also pick up the family once a year (4 adults w/bags) and fly to our cruise ship embarkation destination about 200NM away. The Seneca is fully equipped with some nice options (FIKI, built in oxygen, and onboard WX Radar). The plane has also been paid off for several years now.

Unfortunately my KFC 200 autopilot gave out last year; Autopilot Central quoted about $6k to repair. I additionally need a GPS and engine monitor in the plane. In all, I'd be looking at roughly $25k to get the old KFC-200 operable again and add in a 530W and Engine Monitor.

Dynon recently came out with their Skyview HDX STC for the Seneca. I'd be looking at $60-$70k to rip out all of my steam gauges, KFC-200, and replace it with the HDX system and Dynon Autopilot (along with a 530W). To me the extra money spent for the Dynon makes sense for several reasons. It would be more reliable than keeping the KFC-200, the weight savings, and engine monitoring. One thing I hate about the Seneca II is the placement of the manifold pressure and RPM gauges (right behind your right knee). The Dynon engine monitor would be centered on the panel like a jet. To me have the gauges clearly visible adds safety, especially during a takeoff roll cross-check. I also think upgraded to glass would help with resale.

The Seneca is a good plane for my mission, but my forever dream plane would be a Continental Malibu. The problem is this market is nuts. I honestly couldn't afford a Malibu right now without having to finance. Given the above, I'm contemplating a few options.

Option A: Keep the Seneca, spend the money on the Dynon system, and continue to fly until I can find and afford the right Malibu with cash (most likely 4-5 years). Money out of my pocket for the Dynon upgrade would be $60-$70k. I would have an all glass cockpit, exquisite engine monitoring, digital (reliable) autopilot, and a great IFR platform. If I ever do upgrade to a Malibu, I'd likely lose a percentage of the money used to upgrade the Seneca, and of course devaluation due to time on the airframe, engine, and props. I can exercise this option without any financing.

Option B: Take advantage of the seller's market and sell the Seneca as is right now. However, I'm not sure how long it would take for this market to cool down, or how long it would take to find the right Malibu. I could potentially be left without a plane for a year or two. I'm anticipating $250k for a nice Malibu, but it would most likely have basic steam gauge avionics and the old (troublesome?) KFC-150 autopilot. I'd be looking at $150k out of pocket and would have to finance (but interest rates are low right now).

Option C: Sell the Seneca and get into a simple and "Cheap" plane (like a TB 20 Trinidad) until I can find the right Malibu. This option would be $20-$40k out of pocket and would not require financing. The downside is I'd be buying in this crazy market, but I could invest the extra money I would have invested in the Seneca avionics (roughly $30k).

I posted this thread because I have some specific questions. I don't have any airplane owner friends and don't really engage with my local GA community as much as I should. Are there any folks on this forum that went from a twin to a single, and if so, was there any regret? I don't need a twin per se, but I do enjoy flying my trips at night, and will fly in hard IMC if needed. I'm typically not bounded by any schedule and can shift my trips to the daytime if needed. I do think the Seneca is a fun plane to fly and is fairly efficient for a twin. I would also say that when I do have passengers, they are typically more at ease knowing we're in a twin. My only complaints about owning a twin are operating costs of course, and impaired visibility from the engine nacelles (although forward visibility is improved).

Has anyone upgraded to pressurization and regretted it? It seems that my operating costs for a Malibu would be pretty similar to the operating costs of the Seneca. However, pressurization seems to buy more options in terms of getting above weather. Additionally, the Malibu provides an extra 50-ish knots of cruise speed for the same fuel burn as the Seneca. Another plus for the Malibu is that it has A/C whereas my Seneca doesn't. The Malibu also doesn't have the ZFW restriction of the Seneca, has a longer range, and a bigger cabin.

Is glass in a GA plane over-rated? I'm typically a late adopter of technology, and fly just fine on steam gauges (minus the reliability of them). It seems that glass is the in thing now. I do fly full glass cockpits for my airline and Air Force jobs, but it's a different flying than GA altogether. I do love the situational awareness that the Dynon system could bring, specifically with the NEXRAD, ADS-B Traffic, and digital engine monitoring. With my current mission-sets in my personal plane, I wouldn't be flying or need to couple to any RNP SIDS or STARS. And honestly, I can get a lot of the SA that a glass cockpit brings from Foreflight (minus the engine monitoring). With that being said, if I did move up to a Malibu, I would likely buy one with steam gauges (but with a WAAS GPS and engine monitor). Given the choice, would one favor a steam gauge Malibu or full glass Seneca? Thanks for sticking with me, I'd love to hear your responses.

Dynon Seneca


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 05:34 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 08/26/20
Posts: 332
Post Likes: +184
Aircraft: C182
Seneca is a good platform and is comfy for pax especially in back.

For Pete's sakes, don't install a 530W! There are far superior options like the Garmin GTN650/750Xi or Avidyne 540. The latter would work nicely with Dynon.

It may be worth fixing your existing autopilot, installing the Garmin GI275 combo pack that interfaces with your existing autopilot, and then maybe an EI CGR-30 twin pack for an EIS. This approach gets you 100% (maybe more due to extra redundancy) of the IFR capability of the Dynon glass (exception being enroute VNAV) you're contemplating, involves zero panel cutting and splits the difference price wise. I mention this because its what I am doing to freshen up my 182. Still pricey, but you're going to spend money either way so its a matter of how much! Value is a personal thing.

Like you I'm oggling Continental Malibus but for now will keep puttering along in my Turbo 182. I have no plans to sell the 182 even if I do make it up to a Malibu. In truth, the Malibu would not add much operational advantage to me (and I suspect neither to you) but it is a sexy airplane and I like to fly high so pressurization could mean leaving the O2 tank on the ground. And who doesn't like an airstair door?

Brian


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 08:28 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 07/13/09
Posts: 5043
Post Likes: +6500
Location: Nirvana
Aircraft: OPAs
Well, you asked for opinions.....


I have been from twin to single and back again....oh, maybe 6 times. I love pressurization, and if I could afford it I'd fly a King Air. (I fly one for work, but...can't afford one for me).

My experience is the little stuff, and the opex, is more frequent, and expensive, on a pressurized twin. (I've owned 340, 414, 2 Aerostars, 2 P-Barons). I've had 3 different NA Barons, and to me, they are cheaper, on average, to operate.....both on fuel and maintenance, and I suspect now insurance would be a factor.


Again, just my experience, but I've found that if you have a good "anything", (Baron, Seneca, etc) it trumps the "unknown" new "anything". Sounds like you have had good results with your Seneca. (People sometimes downplay Piper, but I had a great PA-31, that I wish I hadn't sold!).


I really like glass. One of the King Airs I fly has dual G-600s, the other one is purely steam gauges. A baron I fly has a G-600. IMO, the glass is just better for both ease, and SA. I learned on steam gauges, don't have trouble, but when flying in weather, and dealing with STARs, route changes, etc....the GTN 750 is the best I've experienced.


Ultimately, it's a personal preference...but I wonder if a GTN-750, a Garmin autopilot, and a G600 wouldn't be the best for your Seneca.....


Good luck, regardless.

_________________
"Most of my money I spent on airplanes. The rest I just wasted....."
---the EFI, POF-----


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 08:57 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/31/17
Posts: 1589
Post Likes: +623
Aircraft: C180
Keep your known good Seneca, do it up with dynon or garmin, fly, upgrade later.

My buddy sold a pa32 to get a known ice pressurized mirage, he kept it two years. Lotsa little new to you airplane fixes with a new plane and honest the mirage wasn’t all that hot or more comfy than the pa32 cabin. Pressurized was nice to fly comfy in teens but slow climbs and slow descents to manage engine temps meant we weren’t high very long on his 150-200 mile trips.

Grass ain’t always greener!

Saint aviation Jesse Saint on here has done a lot of dynons seems like with good reviews from folks


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 09:03 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/29/14
Posts: 8476
Post Likes: +5264
Location: Brunswick, Ga
Aircraft: PA32RT-300T
If the Seneca is a known quantity right now, do you really want to start over with a new plane? I’ve been doing the same thing as you since 2016; dialing in the planes quirks. I’m just about there and it would be emotionally painful to sell mine and start over with a new basket case.

If the Seneca does what you need it to do, I say stick with it and do panel work. Having basically the same plane as you minus an engine, I can tell you a 10” G3X and GFC500 is going to be a touch over $30k installed. Add another $6k for engine monitoring, which I’m not doing. Unless you are the “gotta have it all” guy, you can get your panel up to a very respectable presentation and functionality for much less OA.

As to the 530W, no way in hell I’d put one in. If you are going to go glass, get at minimum a GTN 650. There are plenty of used ones hitting the market with the Xi variant upgrade and for a decent price. You’ll have plenty of glass to look at with the new panel, so I don’t see any reason to spend more on the 750 unless you have money to burn and like the way the big 750 looks. Bottom line is that installing a 530 is a really poor decision at this point in GA.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 09:15 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/26/09
Posts: 2901
Post Likes: +966
Company: SkewTLogPro
Location: Tampa, FL (KVDF)
Aircraft: 1984 Bonanza A36TN
I think you are going to see a lot of removed KFC-200 units hitting the market in the next few years as people upgrade to more modern autopilots.

You might be able to pick up an entire system on the cheap to use for spares instead of overpaying for the repairs. I would not put $6K into a KFC-200 but if you can find a replacement for the bad part in the $500 range you might be able to keep buying time.

The computer in my KFC-200 just went out on me last month. I'm upgrading to a Garmin autopilot so all of my KFC-200 parts will be for sale next month.

_________________
Friends don't let friends fly commercial.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 15:34 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/22/07
Posts: 12813
Post Likes: +13206
Company: Cogswell Cogs, LLC
Location: KPTK (SE Michigan)
Aircraft: C205
> In all, I'd be looking at roughly $25k to get the old KFC-200 operable
> again and add in a 530W and Engine Monitor.

Is Garmin still repairing 530’s? 530W’s? This path makes no $en$e to me. If someone gave me a 530 (free), I would not pay to install it. You’ll have a bunch of olde, tired semiconductors.

_________________
Life is a DiY project.


Last edited on 03 Jun 2021, 15:41, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 15:38 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/29/14
Posts: 8476
Post Likes: +5264
Location: Brunswick, Ga
Aircraft: PA32RT-300T
Username Protected wrote:
Is Garmin still repairing 530’s? 530W’s?


I hear Garmin is selling them to marina operators as boat anchors :duck:


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 16:21 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/24/19
Posts: 398
Post Likes: +187
Location: Birmingham
Aircraft: Vans RV-6; Archer II
Assuming the times are good on the Seneca and there aren't any big items coming up, I'd go with the Dynon and an IFD 540.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 16:25 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/05/15
Posts: 579
Post Likes: +97
Location: Eastern KY
Aircraft: A36TC, Seneca II
I went with Dynon and 530/430 will swap to Avidyne when the time comes.

Michael


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 16:38 
Offline



User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 06/28/09
Posts: 14129
Post Likes: +9074
Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
Have you flown a Malibu? Pretty tight inside compared to the Seneca. I'd say if you're sure you want to end up in the Malibu, bite the bullet and do it now... you'll be flying what you truly want and longer term you'll be ahead vs dumping money into a plane you're going to sell. That said, I think the Malibu is too small and will likely cost more to run than your Seneca, plus you'll have to climb the maintenance mountain you seem to get on any new purchase.

_________________
http://calipilot.com
atp/cfii


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 20:20 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 06/17/14
Posts: 4893
Post Likes: +1862
Location: KJYO
Aircraft: C-182, GA-7
To get the panel you want will likely set you back $45k if it's Garmin.

IIRC, all Senecas are below 4500lbs even with the GW STCs, so that gives you some options. The G500Txi is a nice nice setup so are the G3X Touch in landscape format. There are some old G500 installations out there that look nice, too, like this one:
https://g-zzot.com/


The school that I fly at has a G3X in a Cherokee 6 (not a Seneca or even a twin) and it is phenomenal and what I would want in my Seneca or TravelAir or Baron if I had the money. The Trio autopilot wasn't that expensive. It has some tendencies to try and seek altitude within 40 feet and the shop has had to tune it a little. However, the integration with the G3X has been great laterally. The Cherokee 6 already had a 530W installed. However, the GTN-650 is in the Cougar and was nearly 3x what a used/refurbished 530w boat anchor costs so I can see the intrigue.

I have heard a rumor that Trio and the STC team they are working with have or nearly have the PA-30/PA-39 Twin Comanche certified and are finishing or have finished the PA-34 Seneca series. It might not hurt to reach out to them or your trusted avionics shop.

With the market being what it is, you can invest in a trouble-free aircraft that is solid for you or invest in an aircraft that will take some work at a premium.

Plan some extended downtime to get what you want with the chip shortage!


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 20:57 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 05/03/12
Posts: 2119
Post Likes: +557
Location: Wichita, KS
Aircraft: Mooney 201
Is a Malibu really that much faster on the same fuel burn? Doesn't seem logical to me. Do you fly LOP? Your Seneca engines should be able to run LOP but maybe you haven't due to lack of engine monitoring? If that's the case, I'd re-run the budget/ops calcs and see if there really is a big enough difference to justify the trade.

Or, just get what you ultimately want! But after 14 years as an owner, I heavily value the devil-you-know side of the argument and would be inclined to stick with the Seneca.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 22:04 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/31/17
Posts: 1589
Post Likes: +623
Aircraft: C180
Username Protected wrote:
But after 14 years as an owner, I heavily value the devil-you-know side of the argument and would be inclined to stick with the Seneca.




Wise wise words


Top

 Post subject: Re: Help me Spend My Money
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 23:01 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/12/08
Posts: 419
Post Likes: +237
Location: Charleston, SC
Aircraft: Big Jet-Little Prop
Username Protected wrote:
I went with Dynon and 530/430 will swap to Avidyne when the time comes.

Michael



Holy rigging, Batman...

Kidding only but why the large power lever split?


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.midwest2.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.tempest.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.camguard.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.Latitude.jpg.