30 Mar 2024, 01:48 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Twin Commanders Posted: 11 May 2021, 10:22 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23616 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: The Citation will have to stop for fuel on a 1000 NM flight, so the Commander will beat it to it's final destination... Not if you get the right Citation. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Twin Commanders Posted: 11 May 2021, 11:00 |
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Joined: 11/30/17 Posts: 6 Post Likes: +5 Location: KPTK
Aircraft: AC90
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Howard,
We have an 840 and love it. I'd be happy to share any data with you but my first suggestion would be to call Bruce. He knows everything about them.
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Post subject: Re: Twin Commanders Posted: 11 May 2021, 22:03 |
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Joined: 03/01/15 Posts: 12 Location: Ft Worth
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Jonathan Thanks for the real world share. Been trying to talk myself out of the Commander but keep coming back to same conclusion, that it built like a tank and the efficiency is hard to come by. Would you mind sharing what you budget annually? How many unplanned mx events do you experience in a given year? Seeing hsi are way less than pt6, 60k for a pair? The recurrent stuff seems manageable at the gear and props every 5 years. What's a rough ball park on these items? 25k for each or 10k/annual reserve?
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Post subject: Re: Twin Commanders Posted: 12 May 2021, 18:33 |
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Joined: 11/06/13 Posts: 403 Post Likes: +246 Location: KFTW-Fort Worth Meacham
Aircraft: C208B, AL18-115
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Howard,
I am based out of Fort Worth as well. I have spent a fair amount of time thinking about Commanders. One negative is that there is not a local pilot pool-particularly compared to King Air or Citation pilots. Another negative is that you have to travel to a service center for the 150 hour inspections.
My insurance broker said underwriters hate old twin turbines for owner pilots and to expect low limits and high hull deductibles. Now I know many people on BT have different experience with insurance, so I may be wrong.
I still lust after Commanders, but I couldn’t make one work for me.
Ed
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Post subject: Re: Twin Commanders Posted: 12 May 2021, 23:19 |
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Joined: 08/09/11 Posts: 1726 Post Likes: +2048 Company: Naples Jet Center Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
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Username Protected wrote: Bruce. what I'm saying is that I shoulda listened to you and bought a 1000, I'm an idiot......commander is the real deal. Great airplane!!!
Ha - i appreciate that Michael but I think you’ve done quite well and there’s a tool for every mission! Your mission requires a school bus! The market is pretty damn efficient and there’s a great case study in value as you know and, I suspect, have enjoyed with Pilatus.
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Post subject: Re: Twin Commanders Posted: 15 May 2021, 11:18 |
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Joined: 03/01/15 Posts: 12 Location: Ft Worth
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Hi Mike - fair points, although it has to be less than a beech turbine for airframe mx no? I get the lighter wing loading but recalled ride quality being superior than B200 in similar rough air. I think VA is slower than some though. What is the MU2 Va? I get the Mu2 appeal, similar buyer I would think to a Commander guy. Off the beaten path find a better way type personality Id say for the typical owner operator. Username Protected wrote: The big negatives for me on Twin Commanders were:
1. High airframe maintenance. Always seemed to be some issue related to corrosion, cracking, and it is just big.
2. Hangar size.
3. Not good in turbulence, wing loading too light.
The MU2 is at the extreme other end of those factors.
The Twin Commander does handle nicely on one engine, the MU2 less so, but far better than I expected, which is why I got one.
Mike C.
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Post subject: Re: Twin Commanders Posted: 15 May 2021, 11:27 |
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Joined: 03/01/15 Posts: 12 Location: Ft Worth
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Good info and would agree on the pilot pool. Probably not a big pilot pool nationwide compared to those more 'standard' types. For owner operator wouldnt be a huge deal but could see wanting to have a guy on standby for SIC or sending the plane on a mission type trips. I was concerned about insurance as well but my broker told me 5MM smooth seems to be doable for around 20% more than king air prices (same hull value). Other turbine multi time is almost a requirement though. Username Protected wrote: Howard,
I am based out of Fort Worth as well. I have spent a fair amount of time thinking about Commanders. One negative is that there is not a local pilot pool-particularly compared to King Air or Citation pilots. Another negative is that you have to travel to a service center for the 150 hour inspections.
My insurance broker said underwriters hate old twin turbines for owner pilots and to expect low limits and high hull deductibles. Now I know many people on BT have different experience with insurance, so I may be wrong.
I still lust after Commanders, but I couldn’t make one work for me.
Ed
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Post subject: Re: Twin Commandersn Posted: 15 May 2021, 20:42 |
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Joined: 03/22/14 Posts: 103 Post Likes: +65 Location: KMYF/ Kamiah, ID
Aircraft: C525, AC90
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Howard, I ended up with a turbine commander (690B) after looking at lot of options. Absolutely no regrets. My motivation was speed: 300kt plus TAS true year round, with the ability to carry 900 lbs of payload 900 Knm. The 501SP looked like a good fit but I did too may short trips mixed in with the longer trips, and it didn’t make sense due to the fuel burn. We looked at Cheyenne’s and MU2s but ended up liking the commander better. 1. Dash 10 331s have a lot of pluses over the PT6, both power, and costs. 5k to 7k tbo. 2. Twin Commander still supports the airframe. Not an Orpan. 3. Nice cabin, easy to load, low to the ground, huge baggage hold. 6 feet, 600 lbs for stuff. 4. Low Vmc 83 ias, never takeoff with flaps, rotate at 90kts. Single engine climb is superb. 5. Great flying qualities. Very well balanced. A joy to fly. 6. Maintenance is reasonable. Other than the gear inspection at 5 years, not much to worry about. 7. Irrelevant History and provenance not super important. I was working on a TBM acquisition that my agent rejected. Some of the logbooks were in French. Big deal? In the TBM world, yes. On TBM’s Everything must be perfect from day 1 or the agents shun the airframe. In the Commander World, history and provenance is more common sense based. So resale won’t suffer if you have a maintenance event outside the 8 service centers. 8. Avionics easily upgradable. Garmin 600txi and Stec3100 can bring an old panel up to date. Not stuck with old stuff. 9. Dirt, gravel, grass, or paved. All surfaces well tolerated. The high wing tpe331 seems to handle it well. Handles shorter fields great.
I would presume you would be looking at 441’s, Cheyenne IIIa’s and MU2’s for a similar mission. The 690/695 is a great choice.
_________________ MEL, Comm. Instr. C525(S) type
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Post subject: Re: Twin Commandersn Posted: 16 May 2021, 09:13 |
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Joined: 03/01/15 Posts: 12 Location: Ft Worth
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Glad to hear from an operator awesome info! Any issues in turbulence? Or is the lighter wing loading only a concern in the longer wingspan models? I may be reading this wrong but it seems like the 695 Va is lower than the 690. Username Protected wrote: Howard, I ended up with a turbine commander (690B) after looking at lot of options. Absolutely no regrets. My motivation was speed: 300kt plus TAS true year round, with the ability to carry 900 lbs of payload 900 Knm. The 501SP looked like a good fit but I did too may short trips mixed in with the longer trips, and it didn’t make sense due to the fuel burn. We looked at Cheyenne’s and MU2s but ended up liking the commander better. 1. Dash 10 331s have a lot of pluses over the PT6, both power, and costs. 5k to 7k tbo. 2. Twin Commander still supports the airframe. Not an Orpan. 3. Nice cabin, easy to load, low to the ground, huge baggage hold. 6 feet, 600 lbs for stuff. 4. Low Vmc 83 ias, never takeoff with flaps, rotate at 90kts. Single engine climb is superb. 5. Great flying qualities. Very well balanced. A joy to fly. 6. Maintenance is reasonable. Other than the gear inspection at 5 years, not much to worry about. 7. Irrelevant History and provenance not super important. I was working on a TBM acquisition that my agent rejected. Some of the logbooks were in French. Big deal? In the TBM world, yes. On TBM’s Everything must be perfect from day 1 or the agents shun the airframe. In the Commander World, history and provenance is more common sense based. So resale won’t suffer if you have a maintenance event outside the 8 service centers. 8. Avionics easily upgradable. Garmin 600txi and Stec3100 can bring an old panel up to date. Not stuck with old stuff. 9. Dirt, gravel, grass, or paved. All surfaces well tolerated. The high wing tpe331 seems to handle it well. Handles shorter fields great.
I would presume you would be looking at 441’s, Cheyenne IIIa’s and MU2’s for a similar mission. The 690/695 is a great choice.
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Post subject: Re: Twin Commandersn Posted: 16 May 2021, 11:44 |
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Joined: 03/22/14 Posts: 103 Post Likes: +65 Location: KMYF/ Kamiah, ID
Aircraft: C525, AC90
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[quote="Howard Weinstein"]Glad to hear from an operator awesome info!
Any issues in turbulence? Or is the lighter wing loading only a concern in the longer wingspan models? I may be reading this wrong but it seems like the 695 Va is lower than the 690. The 690/695 handles turbulence much like the others in its peer group, exception being the MU2. My previous operation experience in the flight levels were in PA46’s and ride alongs in a few other turbines. Ride quality is average to good lMO. 180 kias is the limit for moderate turbulence, Va at greater turbulence. As Byerly would say, this topic is not very high on the decision tree when looking at AC90’s
_________________ MEL, Comm. Instr. C525(S) type
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