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19 Jun 2021, 14:38 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 06 May 2021, 21:54 
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Joined: 01/05/15
Posts: 4
Post Likes: +9
Company: PREMIERE AVIATION
Location: 500 Sally Ride Dr, Concord, CA 94520
Aircraft: c421c
Greetings to all, it has been a long time since we were on the website and forum. We have an STC and PMA for the simplest mod you can do on a 402C-441 Conquest; putting a Speed Cover or in layman's terms "hubcaps" on the exposed retracted main gear.
We came out with this 7 years ago and patented it before making an announcement. Since then we have sold over 550 kits.
What does it do? Well to start for recips, the SE ROC goes up 25%, second the KTAS cruise speed goes anywhere from 3-12 KTAS. Higher is better, heavier is better.
A Cessna 425 Conquest I gets 6-8 KTAS increase at FL270. We have 20% of the 425 fleet with our covers.
The other big winners are the 414A and 421C, these get a huge increase in climb rate especially up high. Increases are 100fpm at SL sloping to 350 fpm at FL250. We see 350-450 fpm in our 421C's at FL250 with 125 KIAS. Keep in mind that is 190 KTAS; in the climb. Most non-cover 421C's will never go above 250 for good reason.
We have flown @270, the plane keeps climbing, the high altitude effect is like a winglet, induced drag reduced; lift increased, change in angle of attack does not increase induced drag, a beautiful thing.
So how much and how long to install, kits are $2,200 complete, they go on in 1-2 hours; I think I have said enough. If you think I'm blowing smoke look at our SE climb video; FEATHERED for a 7 minute climb with go pros keeping up honest, as I said 25% increase in SEA ROC, same day same weight FAA engineered flight test profile; good stuff. premiere-aviation.net


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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 06 May 2021, 22:04 
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Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 3807
Post Likes: +1398
Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
I must have had one of the first sets (prior to the door installation)! I installed them in January of 2015 on a 421C that I managed.

I will say that there was a noticeable improvement in the performance.


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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 06 May 2021, 22:47 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 13363
Post Likes: +16329
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEVV
Aircraft: MU-2B-26, C560V
Username Protected wrote:
putting a Speed Cover or in layman's terms "hubcaps" on the exposed retracted main gear.
We came out with this 7 years ago and patented it

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 039101.pdf

The patent office sure is getting lazy. That patent that will be easy to void with prior art. Putting on hubcaps to cover exposed landing gear goes back at least 50 years, including ones that use brackets to hold it on. All someone will need is a parts book or example from a plane older than 2015.

Indeed, they look a lot like LoPresti Hubba Hubba caps from 20 years ago.
Attachment:
hubba-cap-1.jpg

You can bet OEMs have tested hubcap covers extensively and if they provided the claims stated, the planes would be equipped with them.

There is no laminar flow by the time the air gets back to the gear. You can say "less turbulent", but that's not "laminar" by any means.

An 8 KTAS increase in a 425 speed is a bogus claim. That equates to a 10% reduction in TOTAL drag. The exposed wheels don't have that much drag to give.

Mike C.


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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 07 May 2021, 09:31 
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Joined: 03/25/15
Posts: 461
Post Likes: +114
Company: WillCo Engineering
Location: Houston, TX
Aircraft: Rentals
Do you have any independent test reports outlining test parameters and results? Just out of curiosity


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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 10 May 2021, 18:24 
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Joined: 01/05/15
Posts: 4
Post Likes: +9
Company: PREMIERE AVIATION
Location: 500 Sally Ride Dr, Concord, CA 94520
Aircraft: c421c
Wow, what a sad group of sour souls. First they do work better than any other hubcap; why, for many reasons we researched refined and developed. You may say they are just like Lopresti, a sad day indeed for anyone who thinks that they are the same, drilling holes in wheels is not allowed normally and the FAA required something that maintained the original design strength, drilling and tapping holes does not meet that criteria.

For those wanting to compete, please do so, would love to bring a suit up in Patent court. I placed it because after finding out how effective they were, I was not going to share, sorry not a big enough pie to share boys.

As for documented data, we have a lot on the 425, 4221C and 441. We flight tested the 425 to FL250, the 441 to FL350 and the 421C to FL250.

Lastly for those questioning 6-8 KTAS increase in a 425 at FL270, I have 2 425's here at KCCR with -112's and 135A's. It has been demonstrated for the last 2-3 years what they do. If you have a spar strap the gains will go down the tubes.

The SE climb rate does in fact improve 25%, if you think the video on our website is photoshopped, I have nothing more to share.

We have improved fuel efficiency by 5-10% documented over 7 years with the covers, It varies depending on hw you use the added lift and reduced drag; there are many ways, we have found ways to optimize it.

On another note , which no doubt will be kicked and shredded by many others, we have tuned our GTSIO-520-L & N's to burn 17 gph ROP at 30" 1700 prop. We know most burn 19-21 gph and we get it. We are GTSIO experts and lean aggressively in the climb, have no limit on TIT that 1650 in cruise.

With the covers and our tuned engines we save 15-20% over a stock 421C


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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 10 May 2021, 18:57 
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Joined: 01/23/18
Posts: 66
Post Likes: +112
Aircraft: Aerostar
Peter,

No TIT limit in climb?

:scratch:

I use 1650 TIT limit too.

(Iconal exhaust and tail pipes and clamps)

Forrest


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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 10 May 2021, 19:48 
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Joined: 01/24/10
Posts: 5091
Post Likes: +2814
Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
I had one of the very first set of hubcaps from Peter. I was not sure I would achieve Peter’s numbers , but I was very pleased to discover they worked better than advertised.

I traded my first set in for the new improved version a couple of years ago. Peter is the West Coast expert for 340,414 and 421 series planes. He is one of the most knowledgeable people I have met that truly understands GTISO engines.

Because of Peter I ran my first set of GTISO ENGINES out to TBO and they were running perfectly when I removed them.


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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 10 May 2021, 19:56 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 13363
Post Likes: +16329
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEVV
Aircraft: MU-2B-26, C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Wow, what a sad group of sour souls.

We can recognize snake oil peddlers from miles away. You fit the profile perfectly. Some gadget that looks nice and is claimed to make some difference which is right in the region of natural variability day to day, so no one can be really sure it helps or hurts.

Quote:
First they do work better than any other hubcap; why, for many reasons we researched refined and developed.

And those are, what, exactly?

Quote:
For those wanting to compete, please do so, would love to bring a suit up in Patent court.

Your patent says, in short, "use brackets on existing through bolts to hold a dome shaped hub cap to a wheel". Oh, the bracket has to be canted, too.

That's the totality of the patent. Very weak. Lots of opportunity to find prior art that invalidates, subject to lack of "non obvious" tests, and very easy to design around (for example, don't use brackets which are canted, done).

Quote:
Lastly for those questioning 6-8 KTAS increase in a 425 at FL270

Sophomore aero majors can compute the drag reduction that requires. About 10% of the total drag on the ENTIRE airframe.

Not plausible the wheels have that much drag to give.

Quote:
We have improved fuel efficiency by 5-10% documented over 7 years with the covers

Have you thought of going into business with Tamarack? They use the same alterative physics you do.

Are you going to setup a rigged fly off stunt like they did, too? Your hub caps can eliminate a fuel stop? Wow.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 10 May 2021, 20:01 
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Joined: 01/24/10
Posts: 5091
Post Likes: +2814
Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
Mike, have you ever taken a close look at the strakes for the 400 series planes.

They do absolutely nothing below 20,000 feet


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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 11 May 2021, 00:49 
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Joined: 06/15/12
Posts: 499
Post Likes: +494
Location: KIWA
Aircraft: Debonair 35 - B33
Username Protected wrote:
Wow, what a sad group of sour souls.

We can recognize snake oil peddlers from miles away. You fit the profile perfectly. Some gadget that looks nice and is claimed to make some difference which is right in the region of natural variability day to day, so no one can be really sure it helps or hurts.

Quote:
First they do work better than any other hubcap; why, for many reasons we researched refined and developed.

And those are, what, exactly?

Quote:
For those wanting to compete, please do so, would love to bring a suit up in Patent court.

Your patent says, in short, "use brackets on existing through bolts to hold a dome shaped hub cap to a wheel". Oh, the bracket has to be canted, too.

That's the totality of the patent. Very weak. Lots of opportunity to find prior art that invalidates, subject to lack of "non obvious" tests, and very easy to design around (for example, don't use brackets which are canted, done).

Quote:
Lastly for those questioning 6-8 KTAS increase in a 425 at FL270

Sophomore aero majors can compute the drag reduction that requires. About 10% of the total drag on the ENTIRE airframe.

Not plausible the wheels have that much drag to give.

Quote:
We have improved fuel efficiency by 5-10% documented over 7 years with the covers

Have you thought of going into business with Tamarack? They use the same alterative physics you do.

Are you going to setup a rigged fly off stunt like they did, too? Your hub caps can eliminate a fuel stop? Wow.

Mike C.


Patent life span is 20 years as far as I know. Create and market another weak product if you like. Most patent products are “weak”, easily copied to begin with. Hence the existence of the patent to protect a design right? If it’s a complicated process you wouldn’t disclose the process to get a patent.

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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 11 May 2021, 01:35 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 13363
Post Likes: +16329
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEVV
Aircraft: MU-2B-26, C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Patent life span is 20 years as far as I know.

Generally, from date of filing, with some possible adjustments. The patent in question was filed in 2012.

Quote:
Most patent products are “weak”, easily copied to begin with. Hence the existence of the patent to protect a design right?

Almost anything can be patented if you define it narrowly enough, but it isn't worth doing unless there is enough "bite" to it. That is, you have something new and broad enough to be worth more than the cost of the patent. Too narrow and it is easy to design around. Too broad and it is easy to find prior art that invalidates it. Using a canted bracket to hold on a hub cap might be the rare patent which could fail both tests.

Quote:
If it’s a complicated process you wouldn’t disclose the process to get a patent.

That's generally not true. You would want a patent to protect yourself from someone else doing the same thing, and to increase the value of your invention for sale or licensing.

That did require you disclose the patent, but realistically, patents are never really written to the level of detail that someone could duplicate your work, particularly if it involves high tech electronics or software. Obviously, a hub cap bracket doesn't fall into this category since it is a fairly obvious mechanical device.

The trade secret approach, no patent, has the advantage of being kept secret and being essentially no cost. It is also the default strategy if you do nothing.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 11 May 2021, 12:18 
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Joined: 06/28/09
Posts: 12084
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Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
Username Protected wrote:
Sophomore aero majors can compute the drag reduction that requires. About 10% of the total drag on the ENTIRE airframe.


I'm not a sophomore aero major, and I don't play one on TV, and I don't know much about the 400 series gear design... but if you're cruising your 425 at 270 and put the gar down, I imagine you'd slow down what... 30-40 kts? So if the untucked design is particularly draggy then 7-8 kts seems a little optimistic but not out of the realm of reason. I suppose one could test this in x-plane.

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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 11 May 2021, 14:04 
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Joined: 01/18/11
Posts: 6206
Post Likes: +2757
Location: Lake Marion, SC KOGB
Aircraft: B60 Duke
It just dawned on me who Peter is.
I do not know squat about Cessna hubcaps. But i dealt with Peter over the phone when i bought a Travelair sight unseen at his airport.
He did a lot of work on that plane before i came to get it, high quality, and for California, very fair pricing. I rate his integrity exceptionally high.


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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 11 May 2021, 14:17 
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Joined: 11/06/20
Posts: 74
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Location: KRVS
Aircraft: G6 SR22
Anyone tried hubcaps on a Citation I? The wheels are hanging out like on the 400 series.


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 Post subject: Re: TWIN CESSNA WET WING SPEED MOD THAT REALLY WORKS
PostPosted: 11 May 2021, 15:32 
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Joined: 02/15/21
Posts: 329
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Username Protected wrote:
Anyone tried hubcaps on a Citation I? The wheels are hanging out like on the 400 series.

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I tend to think Cessna put a great deal of thought into the drag aspect of the retracted gear on the Citation because parasitic drag is particularly critical in jets. I even wonder if the wheel is intentionally protruding a bit to smooth the airflow. It seems to me that if they really wanted to, they could have made it flush or even totally recessed.


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