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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 23:38 
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I would have bought Arlen's plane no prebuy and not given it a second thought. The guy who bought my Baron knew it was a deal and dialed-in to the N's, and just went with a a quick once over from my shop. I did something similar with my Tbone.

Sometimes you want it, and you just make a deal and roll on.

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 23:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
If you are considering buying an airplane without a prebuy, call me so I can talk you out of it.

Just a couple of recent examples;

We currently have a King Air in prebuy with a six figure bill for airworthy discrepancies.


Is that in USD, or SAD (Stevens Aerospace Dollars)?


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 23:49 
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Joined: 01/02/08
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Company: Rusnak Auto Group
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Username Protected wrote:
I would have bought Arlen's plane no prebuy and not given it a second thought. The guy who bought my Baron knew it was a deal and dialed-in to the N's, and just went with a a quick once over from my shop. I did something similar with my Tbone.

Sometimes you want it, and you just make a deal and roll on.

I’ve only owned 4 planes and that’s pretty much how I rolled on each. Everyone’s knowledge, risk tolerance, and check book is different so what worked for me may well not work for someone else. If I was stepping up into less known territory like a King Air my playbook would be entirely different.

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 08:00 
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Prebuys on legacy jets are totally overrated. Boroscope the engines and test the systems. If it looks dodgy cosmetically then pull the lavatory floorboards and look for corrosion in addition to your general corrosion walk around (extremely rare). Bring a window prism and look for cracks. In this market, this is pretty much all I would let someone do.

I think the difference in a jet and a piston is that many piston annuals are faked. This sort of fake maintenance is extremely rare with jets and is very obvious when you come across it.

So I'll take the contrarian view that's worked out great for me: ALWAYS buy airplanes without a PREBUY but like anything else in life; don't be an idiot!


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 08:29 
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Joined: 11/25/11
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Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
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Username Protected wrote:
Prebuys on legacy jets are totally overrated. Boroscope the engines and test the systems. If it looks dodgy cosmetically then pull the lavatory floorboards and look for corrosion in addition to your general corrosion walk around (extremely rare). Bring a window prism and look for cracks. In this market, this is pretty much all I would let someone do.

I think the difference in a jet and a piston is that many piston annuals are faked. This sort of fake maintenance is extremely rare with jets and is very obvious when you come across it.

So I'll take the contrarian view that's worked out great for me: ALWAYS buy airplanes without a PREBUY but like anything else in life; don't be an idiot!


I am only commenting on one sentence that Michael has posted because I know zilch about jets. "I think the difference in a jet and a piston is that many piston annuals are faked"

"Faked" may be painting with a broad brush, but "minimal" is not. That is a matter of semantics, but I do agree with Michael. The annual is no better than the guy doing it and no deeper than the owner's pocket book. My "pre-buys" have always been relative to the circumstances and my judgement of the owner.

The only big mistake I ever made in buying an airplane included an annual by one of the "most respected shops" with regard to the brand. There is a lot more to that story than will ever be printed in a public forum.

Jg

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 08:49 
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Chip,
Do you find that buying airplanes that have been on a -135 certificate are less risky in a quick to no pre-buy inspection scenario? Or maybe asking in a different way, can you put more trust in the supposed rigors of -135 maintenance?
Are they generally better, safer buys or worse?

I helped a friend purchase a 421 recently that was on a 135 certificate. It still had some issues. I expected better from a 135 operation. The logbooks were a mess, the AD compliance list was out of date. Somehow the ADs were all complied with if you dug far enough into the books. Lots of little items that did not effect the airworthiness of the aircraft were neglected. We knew that going into the purchase.

I guess it would depend on the operator, they are attempting to be profitable not necessarily running an open checkbook.


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 10:40 
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Joined: 02/06/18
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Aircraft: Piper PA-32R 300
Bought my present plane without a pre-buy but only because my A&P has been maintaining it for the last 15 years and he said "Buy it"

Oh, and he's recognized as one of the best in the country............

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"It rubs the lotion on it's skin"


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 11:17 
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Joined: 01/14/17
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Prebuy? Any airplane listed that is a decent deal gets snapped up by a broker sight unseen, you might have the first dibs already called in, and then its sold by the time you get to it.

The used cars I've gotten good prices on this year were only listed for sale for about 20 minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 12:03 
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Joined: 09/11/09
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What's the old saying, caveat emptor?

If the buyer offers the deal that way....... :shrug: ........who are we to argue?

On the flip side of that coin, we don't recommend doing so.

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 12:38 
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Joined: 02/13/10
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Location: Castle Rock, Colorado
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Username Protected wrote:
I would have bought Arlen's plane no prebuy and not given it a second thought.
...
Sometimes you want it, and you just make a deal and roll on.

My 310 was sold via a BeechTalk PM, then a follow-up phone call, and then consummated the next day via “spousal walkaround” ...and a check was written.

I bought a couple planes over the years in a similar way. Buy it, get it home, and never look back. No regrets..

That’s not always a good idea, but it often works ok...

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 12:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
I would have bought Arlen's plane no prebuy and not given it a second thought.
...
Sometimes you want it, and you just make a deal and roll on.

My 310 was sold via a BeechTalk PM, then a follow-up phone call, and then consummated the next day via “spousal walkaround” ...and a check was written.

I bought a couple planes over the years in a similar way. Buy it, get it home, and never look back. No regrets..

That’s not always a good idea, but it often works ok...


Arlen, I think it's safe to say that your 310 was an exception to almost every rule regarding aircraft purchase. Any one of us who was in the market for a 310 would have bought it, probably sight unseen.
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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 15:56 
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Joined: 11/06/20
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Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
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Username Protected wrote:
I would have bought Arlen's plane no prebuy and not given it a second thought.
...
Sometimes you want it, and you just make a deal and roll on.

My 310 was sold via a BeechTalk PM, then a follow-up phone call, and then consummated the next day via “spousal walkaround” ...and a check was written.

I bought a couple planes over the years in a similar way. Buy it, get it home, and never look back. No regrets..

That’s not always a good idea, but it often works ok...

I agree w/ Ron. If you know the seller (either personally or by reputation) there is much less risk in purchasing w/o an exhaustive pre-buy. Buying something from someone you don't know off of Controller is a whole different thing, IMO.

It also depends upon how much of an expert you are at a given type/model. Tarver has bought and sold a ton of legacy Citations over the last few years. He is comfortable w/ the checks that he recommended plus a check flight (he has flown enough of them that he can pick up things that "don't feel right"). If you are new to the type/model you would not have this toolbox to work from.

In this seller's market, are you at risk of losing a deal if you demand an extensive pre-buy? Yes. So you have to decide. Is your want/need of the aircraft greater than your exposure if you don't do a pre-buy? Can you wait until the market slows down and sellers are more willing to do pre-buys?

I think that is a highly personal decision.

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 16:24 
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Last airplane I bought the seller was very resistant to a pre-buy. The airplane just came out of annual with quite a few items addressed at that time. I posted on BT about that, and the group wisdom was to get a pre-buy. Finally we convinced the seller to get one, and thanks to a detail oriented mechanic we found a crack in the case. It will be a special circumstance for me to ever consider no pre-buy ever again.


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 16:35 
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I've bought seven airplanes, 3 with and 4 without. Even though I had the most problems with the pre-buy airplanes, I'd still recommend getting one. I knew and trusted the mechanics that had been working on three of planes I bought without pre-buys so I didn't feel like I was taking a risk. The fourth was a deHavilland Chipmunk that was few hundred miles away. I trusted the seller and bought it after I checked it out and flew it. The seller even flew it from WV to Philly for me without a sales agreement or deposit from me, just a handshake.


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 16:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
Chip,
Do you find that buying airplanes that have been on a -135 certificate are less risky in a quick to no pre-buy inspection scenario? Or maybe asking in a different way, can you put more trust in the supposed rigors of -135 maintenance?
Are they generally better, safer buys or worse?


Great question!

The 135 regs require maintenance be tracked properly, but there's still a very good chance that maintenance will be overlooked, especially if it is maintained by in-house mechanics.

Plus, and this is REALLY important... a pre-purchase inspection and a required inspection are two totally different things. A good pre-purchase inspection will check things that never get inspected during routine maintenance, a great example is black death in a King Air's AC system. We look for it at prebuy now because we know to look for it and how to go about it, but it is not something that would ever be inspected during a phase inspection. It's also not something that is covered in a standard prebuy. Unfortunately most people find they have black death when the AC quits working.

I'm no more comfortable with a 135 airplane than I am a 91... the only time my comfort level goes up is when I go through the logbooks and can see that the shop that has been maintaining it actually knows what they are doing.

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