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19 Jun 2021, 15:07 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 05 May 2021, 14:53 
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I agree with you on Legacy airplanes, but anything we do that's less than about 20 years old probably goes to Textron. Even if my client doesn't plan to maintain the airplane at Textron we still want a Textron prebuy and to check for gear issues because the airplane will likely go to Textron for a prebuy when they sell it and I don't want the previous owners corrosion issues to become our clients financial responsibility.


Seems like a perfect example of why ay turbine seller would heavily favor a no-prebuy offer. Because his airplane will go to a shop that will micrometer parts that aren't even part of a normal inspection. Said measurement may come up with a totally clearcut paperwork of flight issue that's gonna cost him $50K+


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 05 May 2021, 19:14 
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The risk of the pre-buy inspection grounding a plane (possibly without good cause) is also real.

Its a serious issue and I don't see a good solution. If all mechanics were both skilled and trustworthy, it would be fine, but some are not, and that can result in a situation where a pre-buy grounds an airplane that the owners local shop has signed off as airworthy. (and can be the fault of either mechanic).


Perhaps I am missing something... Why is there a risk of grounding the plane? Pre-buy is not an officially required inspection, it's just a look-see for the buyer, and no maintenance is performed. This being the case, why a sign-off of any kind from the mechanic doing the "inspection" is necessary?


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 05 May 2021, 20:32 
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Username Protected wrote:

I agree with you on Legacy airplanes, but anything we do that's less than about 20 years old probably goes to Textron. Even if my client doesn't plan to maintain the airplane at Textron we still want a Textron prebuy and to check for gear issues because the airplane will likely go to Textron for a prebuy when they sell it and I don't want the previous owners corrosion issues to become our clients financial responsibility.


Seems like a perfect example of why ay turbine seller would heavily favor a no-prebuy offer. Because his airplane will go to a shop that will micrometer parts that aren't even part of a normal inspection. Said measurement may come up with a totally clearcut paperwork of flight issue that's gonna cost him $50K+


If the seller is selling a late model Citation they will be expecting a prebuy and Textron. The buyer has to expect that when they sell the airplane it will likely go to Textron, so it would be foolish to buy a late model without a Textron prebuy. We've never purchased a Citation without a prebuy and the few that didn't go to Textron went to Stevens.

On a late model, if the seller isn't open to a Textron prebuy, we (and all other educated buyers) aren't even going to bother making an offer.

We'll play around on older airplanes and King Airs, but when you start talking about $2M - $10M Citations... the exposure is too great, the cost too varied to cut any corners.
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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 05 May 2021, 20:54 
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Can a mechanic ground a plane on a non-require inspection if they find a serious airworthiness issue? (asking - I don't know).

Maybe the concern is that the *seller* might be unable to claim he wasn't aware of some serious safety issue in the plane and set himself up for a lawsuit when he sells to someone else?

Username Protected wrote:
The risk of the pre-buy inspection grounding a plane (possibly without good cause) is also real.

Its a serious issue and I don't see a good solution. If all mechanics were both skilled and trustworthy, it would be fine, but some are not, and that can result in a situation where a pre-buy grounds an airplane that the owners local shop has signed off as airworthy. (and can be the fault of either mechanic).


Perhaps I am missing something... Why is there a risk of grounding the plane? Pre-buy is not an officially required inspection, it's just a look-see for the buyer, and no maintenance is performed. This being the case, why a sign-off of any kind from the mechanic doing the "inspection" is necessary?


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 05 May 2021, 22:10 
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Can a mechanic ground a plane on a non-require inspection if they find a serious airworthiness issue? (asking - I don't know).

That's what I am asking, too. Typically, a mechanic can ground a plane by refusing to make "return to service" logbook entry after maintenance. But I'd think that if no maintenance is performed, then no logbook entry is needed.


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 05 May 2021, 22:30 
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The answer is that it depends... in piston airplanes there aren't many required inspections, so it depends on the mechanic and if he wants to ground the airplane... if he is doing an annual inspection then he can justifiably ground the airplane based on his findings. If he is doing a prebuy only, but discovers a required inspection that hasn't been done, then he could ground the airplane because of that.

In the turbine world, we don't do prebuy inspections that do not involve either phase inspections or document inspections, the reason is simple... things come due on a regular basis so you wouldn't burn $5k in jet fuel to relocate to a maintenance facility, spend $$ to take the airplane completely apart, and not do a required inspection and reset the clock on that inspection while you were at it.

The exception would be the Excel prebuy I mentioned, they were going to roll into a big Doc inspection, but we stopped before that so the airplane wouldn't be grounded.

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 06 May 2021, 06:45 
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Mechanics can’t ground planes. Only the FAA.

Aircraft can become unairworthy due to the discovery of a discrepancy, but this is the result of inspection.

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 06 May 2021, 07:22 
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Honestly, Textron ppi inspections have been pretty weak in my recent experience. Obvious squawks left over on late model citations. I find West Star to be more thorough.

-Citation Jet Exchange


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 06 May 2021, 08:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
Mechanics can’t ground planes. Only the FAA.


Maybe not legally,
but within reason, of course.

I can't believe Del Lehmann would see something big time wrong and let a pilot takeoff.

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 06 May 2021, 08:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
Mechanics can’t ground planes. Only the FAA.


Maybe not legally,
but within reason, of course.

I can't believe Del Lehmann would see something big time wrong and let a pilot takeoff.

I'm saying a mechanic doesn't have the authority to ground a plane, because the regulations automatically "ground" a plane when an unairworthy condition is discovered. This removes the mechanic from that awkward position of having to "ground" a plane. I prefer it this way.

It is the mechanics responsibility to inform the owner/pilot. It's then up to the owner/pilot to remedy that condition. They may do so by hiring the mechanic that discovered the unairworthy item, or they may request a ferry permit and take it somewhere else.
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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 06 May 2021, 08:38 
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You mean you wouldn't take the keys outta my hand and say,
"Arnie, you ain't leavin til that's fixed"?

I thought we were buds...

I'm still lookin forward to a bowl of that Award Winning Chili!

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 06 May 2021, 08:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
Why is there a risk of grounding the plane? Pre-buy is not an officially required inspection, it's just a look-see for the buyer, and no maintenance is performed. This being the case, why a sign-off of any kind from the mechanic doing the "inspection" is necessary?

Legally, if a pre purchase evaluation isn't a true inspection of any kind (no annual, phase, doc inspection), then it doesn't ground the airplane by itself. The mechanic is not legally involved.

But...

If the operator of the airplane becomes aware of an airworthiness discrepancy, say crack in wing spar, that operator can no longer fly the airplane legally since they know they plane in unairworthy. Basically the mechanic "assisted" in an "extensive" preflight and now the pilot/operator is on the hook for whether the airplane is airworthy.

Even if you could argue some legal loophole, would you fly an airplane with a major discrepancy?

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 06 May 2021, 11:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
Can a mechanic ground a plane on a non-require inspection if they find a serious airworthiness issue? (asking - I don't know).

That's what I am asking, too. Typically, a mechanic can ground a plane by refusing to make "return to service" logbook entry after maintenance. But I'd think that if no maintenance is performed, then no logbook entry is needed.


Technically, if no "maintenance" is performed, then no endorsement is required. But once an AMT takes the first screw out, you are past the "no maintenance" part...

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 06 May 2021, 11:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
That's what I am asking, too. Typically, a mechanic can ground a plane by refusing to make "return to service" logbook entry after maintenance. But I'd think that if no maintenance is performed, then no logbook entry is needed.


Technically, if no "maintenance" is performed, then no endorsement is required. But once an AMT takes the first screw out, you are past the "no maintenance" part...


Nope, only for the work performed. Ask for a tire change on an airplane with no wings and it can (and should) be signed off

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 06 May 2021, 11:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
Legally, if a pre purchase evaluation isn't a true inspection of any kind (no annual, phase, doc inspection), then it doesn't ground the airplane by itself. The mechanic is not legally involved.

But...

If the operator of the airplane becomes aware of an airworthiness discrepancy, say crack in wing spar, that operator can no longer fly the airplane legally since they know they plane in unairworthy. Basically the mechanic "assisted" in an "extensive" preflight and now the pilot/operator is on the hook for whether the airplane is airworthy.

Even if you could argue some legal loophole, would you fly an airplane with a major discrepancy?


The problem is, there is a wide variety of opinion on what is airworthy and what isn't. If something that is an immediate and severe danger is discovered, there is no question, any reasonable owner would be happy than thankful. But if, using an example from earlier in this thread, mechanic takes a micrometer to the wheel axle and finds it slightly out of spec, the plane is technically not airworthy, but is still perfectly safe to fly.

That's the case where we don't want the mechanic to ground the plane. During an official inspection, they have the power to do that by refusing to sign off the return to service. The point I am making is that during a pre-buy, return to service is not required, so the owner can just say "thank you for your opinion, and goodbye".


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